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General Chat Thread, My ICT Teacher cannot mark my homework in General; Originally Posted by mthomas08 I disagree and agree, I believe a ICT Teacher should have a better understanding of IT ...
  1. #61

    garethedmondson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthomas08 View Post
    I disagree and agree, I believe a ICT Teacher should have a better understanding of IT then other "non ICT" people shall we call them the Normal User? ICT Staff should understand more.
    I agree with you totally here. How many teachers do not know their stuff in their subjects? I know a Media teacher who cannot video edit - but otherwise in my school the teachers know what their subject demands. I have one non-specialist ICT Teacher. She contributes a lot to the department. I help her with ICT (as is my job) and she brings new teaching ideas to the table from her 'main' subject.

    Our previous head of ICT actually understood a lot, then he was the head of IT Support as well and dealt with everything, if he didnt deal with it you could bet that he was involved when it came to IT accross the college. Since he retired IT Support has grown - it needed to grow due ot the growth of IT Accross the school. We no longer have really anything to do with ICT Classes, we can no longer dedicate our time to making sure the ICT Suites are clean and tidy and working 100% and fix every issue with the PCs. Mainly because we have ICT suites throughout the college and even PE have 4 suites and time table lessons in additional 2 (non ICT Dept ones). If just one of our servers went down out of 10 you can place a huge bet on how many people will complain.
    In the old days Heads of ICT used to do everything. Then the Unions got involved and created that list of ~23 things teachers should not be doing. This means extra people had to be employed. In my school every member of the SMT has some sort of secretary doing their work. Exams Officer has an Exams Secretary and so on. Waste of money.

    I still keep in with the ICT Support - often being second line. @rich_tech is our first line then I sometimes get involved if we need to discuss issues. LEA Support is our third line. Very rare does it reach the LEA. We have everything covered. In all fairness @rich_tech works hard. I know he is currently VPN'ed in finishing off the library rebuild for tomorrow morning.

    Personally I feel like schools are saving too much money by getting unqualified staff over qualified to save money - how bad is it that schools have to save money? We recently suffered redundancies as well and employed even younger (ex Students) as Teaching Assistances. Not forgetting the 15 PGCE Students and a couple of Volunteers (unpaid) who are doing more then just assisting teachers but are some times taking full classes on their own.
    Yes yes yes - agree totally. Our school employs a lot of ex-pupils as LSA's.

    I was approached by the head of ICT and she did ask if the students could do a questionaire on things they need to know about servers/networking and the questions she was talking about was core details. Like what is the main server, what does it do, what makes it "work". I did politely say if she wants to gather them all together for me and forward the questions to me I will get back as soon as I can.
    Does that mean the staff member should of known those answers or instead should that staff member prepared it all for me so I could answer them easier directly with her and then she can pass it to the students? or should I be answering them directly with the students?
    Help out if you can. I say this a lot on Edugeek but we are all there to benefit the pupils - if this means helping a fellow member of staff then make it so - but make sure you are given time back to continue your normal duties. If she didn't know the answers then show her.

    Gareth

  2. #62

    garethedmondson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermand View Post
    Sadly, for me, it wasn't until college that lecturers would actually say "Wow, that's really cool - how did you do that?". I still have the graded exam that I did while there - one section was a mock proposal from an IT company to a customer. I just used what I knew, and made it fit with the questions and went into epic detail. It was simply annotated with "Incredible." I'll never fault my college lecturers.
    Unfortunately a lot of ICT Teachers are like that. They see their subject and possibly their integrity threatened by those who know more. I'm not sure of any other subject where this is the case. Maths is maths, history is history - people might have more knowledge but in general nothing changes.

    ICT is different - new people, new ideas. I hate now knowing some things (which is why I come here). Threatened? Not really.

    It is something I tell my student teachers - if you don't know find out. Read, read and read again. I'm suprised that a lot of ICT teachers do not read ICT/Computing based stuff.

    Gareth

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    garethedmondson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthomas08 View Post
    Although it is interesting that @hermand mentioned Uni, University lecturers get paid a lot to actually spot the difference between an impressive piece of work done differently? they are also expected to "know their stuff". I could be mistaken but that's how I feel.
    I'm not sure the pay is that good, but what they do get is a lot more free time to mark and prepare lectures (from what I know of my mates that are Uni lecturers). The main difference is that some have to prepare research papers every year as part of their contract.

    Gareth

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    garethedmondson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    Am I right in believing that in all subjects except IT, you have to be educated to degree level in that subject to teach it at GCSE?
    I'm not sure. I always thought it was to A-Level.

    Gareth

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    Quote Originally Posted by garethedmondson View Post
    I know a Media teacher who cannot video edit
    Is this because they don't understand the editing process (by that I mean the grammar of video/TV, narrative structure, cutaways etc) or aren't familiar enough with the particular editing software that's used at your place?

    In many respects being able to teach the theory via a paper edit is more valuable than being able to teach the ins and outs of a particular proprietry application IMO. I say that as somebody who did media GCSE and GNVQ at a time when you learned to edit audio tape with a razor blade (or mini disc if you were lucky) and video with two VHS machines. You had to think about what you were recording because you couldn't "fix it in the edit", and you had to think about what you were doing when editing as there's no undo button. All of the principles I learned with the old-skool tech have stood me in good stead for using computer based editing.

  6. #66

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    erm, you just did. yes, i know you'll say you weren't comparing them and before its said, i didnt compare the two either, i merely used a task performed 100 times as an example of two differing jobs.

    my point is still that where does it end? so you wouldn't expect an IT teacher to know about a SAN, fair enough, but you'd expect him to know the difference between a DVD and bluray. ok, so he goes and googles it, has that made him a better teacher?

    oh and please don't start with the "what you are saying is". i did not say mediocrity is fine, please stop trying to twist my words. so child x goes to the teacher and says ive done my coursework in c#. great, the teacher has no idea how to understand it. now how long does it take the teacher on top of all the other stuff they have to do (because this isn't a teacher bashing thread, i know teachers do have other tasks) to learn c# to a level he can understand that one piece of coursework? lets say he does it, and now knows enough about c# to mark it. next year a student says ive done it in php. should he then learn php, and every other variation of coding out there on the offchance a student might use it?

    wouldn't you rather the teacher said "thats great, i think we should get you on a course outside of here where you can really progress" not just "well ive googled what c# is and that looks quite good, you get a B". we shouldn't be expecting an IT teacher to be a master of all things IT related in the field. lets face it, if we were masters of general IT this site wouldn't exist.

    the closest thing i can think of is that a driving instructor is there to teach you how to drive. they know the laws of the road, how to operate a car and how to teach you in those respects. it is safe to assume not all of them know what each and every part under the bonnet does, or even have a working knowledge of exactly how an engine works. so why should an IT teacher know off by heart what every single component in a PC does and how to replace them?
    again, i am not saying i agree that IT teachers know very little of IT, but i also think its unfair to expect them to be wildly knowledgeable in it either when for the majority part their job doesn't warrant it.

    You are still saying that effectively a child who does something which the teacher knows nothing about should be penalised because of that lack of teacher knowledge. That 1 out of 100 is still a person. Someone who should get as much effort put into his education as the other 99. Without that effort, you end up with kids not making the effort because they know it'll be ignored.

    And a teacher knowing some C# would mean they have the ability to pick up some PHP pretty quickly, or some Java etc... Knowing the basics of how to program, and how to look at API documentation would give the teacher enough skills to handle the examples you give.

    I can program in c#, java, php, and a bit of python. But when someone gives me some code in VB.net? I can easily look through it and figure out what it does. Same with Ruby or c. That's because I know the basics of programming, not because I have to know each language in its entirety to be able to understand it.

    If a driving instructor were required to do anything other than get people to pass a very strict set of instructions for a test, I'd agree with your example but as they don't, I don't. If they were teaching a mechanic course, and a new type of engine came out, which had a new component in it, I would expect them to learn about it and know about it, even if it were only in 1% of cars...

  7. #67

    MK-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    You are still saying that effectively a child who does something which the teacher knows nothing about should be penalised because of that lack of teacher knowledge.
    No I didn't, but with the feeling of Deja Vu in this thread to other threads I'm not going to waste time carrying on trying to go over my reasoning.....


  8. Thanks to MK-2 from:

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    No I didn't, but with the feeling of Deja Vu in this thread to other threads I'm not going to waste time carrying on trying to go over my reasoning.....
    Can you not see my point at all or something? What should a teacher be doing in your view with a child who does something like the kid in the OP? I think I've made my point pretty clearly, so I want to hear what your counter point is. You say 'send them on a course', but I've *never* heard of any school doing this for a child. Not to mention, how does it help them with their GCSE/A-Levels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Can you not see my point at all or something? What should a teacher be doing in your view with a child who does something like the kid in the OP? I think I've made my point pretty clearly, so I want to hear what your counter point is. You say 'send them on a course', but I've *never* heard of any school doing this for a child. Not to mention, how does it help them with their GCSE/A-Levels?
    Right, my final post here as it's getting tiring.
    Yes, I can quite clearly see your point. If you bothered to read my posts you would see I said "I'm not saying that I agree with an ICT teacher not knowing a lot", that is me not only seeing but making your point earlier.

    My counterpoint is that it would be nice for an ICT teacher to say "you coded in c#, that's awesome, lets look through it together and I'll mark it" but the reality is that won't happen. In the days where teachers are striking because they have too many "non teaching" tasks to do, do you think any teacher will willingly go on a programming course purely on the offchance 1 child out of the 600 they teach MIGHT use it?
    You may not have heard of a child being recommended a course, I have....we've done that here. Is it wrong for me to expect a school to do more than just something within the confines of GCSE/A-Levels?
    You asked how a course would help with their GCSEs. Well granted it may not help directly with them getting an A* in GCSE ICT, but let's face it, if you are coding in C# or whatever at GCSE then a course aimed at furthering your coding skills will help more for your personal development than getting a GCSE grade in a subject that most companies will know as an Office based subject at GCSE.

    I'm not going to spend any more time going over it as I do agree and see both sides, hopefully you can at least see my reasoning for not swaying too far either side

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    Right, my final post here as it's getting tiring.
    Yes, I can quite clearly see your point. If you bothered to read my posts you would see I said "I'm not saying that I agree with an ICT teacher not knowing a lot", that is me not only seeing but making your point earlier.

    My counterpoint is that it would be nice for an ICT teacher to say "you coded in c#, that's awesome, lets look through it together and I'll mark it" but the reality is that won't happen. In the days where teachers are striking because they have too many "non teaching" tasks to do, do you think any teacher will willingly go on a programming course purely on the offchance 1 child out of the 600 they teach MIGHT use it?
    You may not have heard of a child being recommended a course, I have....we've done that here. Is it wrong for me to expect a school to do more than just something within the confines of GCSE/A-Levels?
    You asked how a course would help with their GCSEs. Well granted it may not help directly with them getting an A* in GCSE ICT, but let's face it, if you are coding in C# or whatever at GCSE then a course aimed at furthering your coding skills will help more for your personal development than getting a GCSE grade in a subject that most companies will know as an Office based subject at GCSE.

    I'm not going to spend any more time going over it as I do agree and see both sides, hopefully you can at least see my reasoning for not swaying too far either side
    I can see your reasoning, but the point I think most of us are making is that you are sticking to 'what happens now' as the reason to stick with 'what happens now'. Seems kind of like giving up before you even start to be honest.

    What I'm saying is that what should be happening, regardless of how teachers get upset about having to do it. Part of the problem is the attitude that teachers won't accept changes in what is expected of them! Surely the desire is to the best for every kid?

    You can say you're not going to spend time arguing it, but I don't understand why. A discussion forum is for exactly that, discussing and trying to figure out what the different viewpoints are and how to resolve the differences.

    Then, another discussion would be the fact that the kids need their bank of GCSE/A-Level grades to get into courses at university. A random course outside that framework will not usually aid them with that, and at the moment, neither will an ICT A-Level.

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    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    My counterpoint is that it would be nice for an ICT teacher to say "you coded in c#, that's awesome, lets look through it together and I'll mark it" but the reality is that won't happen.
    That right there is what I think should have happened and should be a process allowed for in the marking scheme. A teacher doesn't need to know any language inside out; if the student can sit down and clearly demonstrate through discussion and some annotation of the code that they understand the code they've written, does the teacher really need to?

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    MK-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    You can say you're not going to spend time arguing it, but I don't understand why. A discussion forum is for exactly that, discussing and trying to figure out what the different viewpoints are and how to resolve the differences.
    Quite simply, because although I agree with you, you are arguing against me. I agree with viewpoint A but can also understand viewpoint B (whether I agree with it or not). You appear to see viewpoint A and dismiss any attempt at reasoning from viewpoint B even from someone already agreeing with you.
    That is why I do not wish to continue trying, I have laid out my stall, people can see my viewpoints and opinions, I don't feel the need to then argue them time and time again with the same points.

  14. Thanks to MK-2 from:

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    SteveBentley's Avatar
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    I read a paper by a lecturer who reserved the top 10% of his marking scheme for students who did something he wasn't expecting. When students ask how to get a top mark he just says "surprise me".

    Obviously in HE lecturers have a lot more freedom to experiment with marking schemes, and in an environment where 70% represents an A grade having something to push students to achieve something higher is a good thing.

  16. #74

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    Quite simply, because although I agree with you, you are arguing against me. I agree with viewpoint A but can also understand viewpoint B (whether I agree with it or not). You appear to see viewpoint A and dismiss any attempt at reasoning from viewpoint B even from someone already agreeing with you.
    That is why I do not wish to continue trying, I have laid out my stall, people can see my viewpoints and opinions, I don't feel the need to then argue them time and time again with the same points.
    Stating what is the status quo, and saying 'In the days where teachers are striking because they have too many "non teaching" tasks to do, do you think any teacher will willingly go on a programming course purely on the offchance 1 child out of the 600 they teach MIGHT use it?' doesn't forward the discussion though, it is, as I said, giving up.

    I'm pleased that you disagree with that view point, but why state it? It'd be like me saying 'I have a job offer where I get £1m a year, but I'm not going to because I currently do my existing job'.

    EDIT: ooh, I do seem to be upsetting people lately. More neg rep. Why not, I dunno, reply instead (or in addition to the rep, I don't mind)?
    Last edited by localzuk; 17th November 2011 at 12:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Why do people all presume that music needs to get down and funky with music tech? .
    Because otherwise how will the kids make bad dubstep remixes to post on youtube?

    My god man, think of the children!

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