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General Chat Thread, My ICT Teacher cannot mark my homework in General; Originally Posted by LosOjos Am I right in believing that in all subjects except IT, you have to be educated ...
  1. #46


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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    Am I right in believing that in all subjects except IT, you have to be educated to degree level in that subject to teach it at GCSE?
    no, you can teach any secondary subject after you qualify.

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    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    The student might also have failed because they did not follow the instructions. As much as we are giving them the skills to get into the workplace / be part of society, part of that is that should you get an assignment that says "do X using Y" and you instead do A using B (even if it gets the same results or is better) then this is a fail. Learning to follow instructions is a valid task ... learning to challenge instructions and formulate a better set is a different task.

    Discuss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CESIL View Post
    <snip>Many, many moons ago (ok mid 70s) I one of the first computer courses in our county which was only a CSE (if you remember those then you is old like me ).

    <snip>
    My final assessed program was a text based cricket game with full size teams and proper scoring based on a game called Owzat which was played with two special dice.

    <snip>.
    Certificate of Secondary Education......poor man's 'O' level as I remember

    Owzat! Omigod, I used to play that with my Grandad when I was a kid, about 9 or 10.

  4. #49

    nephilim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    Am I right in believing that in all subjects except IT, you have to be educated to degree level in that subject to teach it at GCSE?
    This only applies to Science and Maths (due to the nature of the biology, chemistry, physics and the various areas of maths you need to know them and not blag them)

    The rest you could have a degree in media and become a teacher of any subject you specialise in during the PGCE/PGT training.

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    nephilim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    The student might also have failed because they did not follow the instructions. As much as we are giving them the skills to get into the workplace / be part of society, part of that is that should you get an assignment that says "do X using Y" and you instead do A using B (even if it gets the same results or is better) then this is a fail. Learning to follow instructions is a valid task ... learning to challenge instructions and formulate a better set is a different task.

    Discuss.
    Instructions (to my understanding) was to create some multimedia project - creating an app for a phone is most definitely multimedia compared to powerpoint!

    As for differing methodologies of doing tasks, the principle should be "here is the task, it is up to you how to do it provided you do not lie/cheat/steal etc" That way it allows the freedom for the person to learn their own way of doing things and you would get a better range of results.

    This is solely my opinion on the matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    The student might also have failed because they did not follow the instructions. As much as we are giving them the skills to get into the workplace / be part of society, part of that is that should you get an assignment that says "do X using Y" and you instead do A using B (even if it gets the same results or is better) then this is a fail. Learning to follow instructions is a valid task ... learning to challenge instructions and formulate a better set is a different task.

    Discuss.
    There's a comment on the article from the student in question (or somebody purporting to be, anyway) - search the page for Josh Pickett - in which he addresses this and also the commenting your code issue. He basically says that he asked for the criteria, talked to the teacher about whether his ideas were acceptable, and put comments in the code but had to go back and add a load more.

    Taken at face value, it seems he did everything right.

  7. #52

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd View Post
    Were focussing a lot here on this being the IT teachers 'fault' for not understanding technology, or having experience as a software developer!?!

    I think that this situation is often down to exam board assessment criteria - The ICT teachers can only set tasks that will meet the criterion laid out by the exam board, and as such the teachers will only be versed in those technologies. We've attempted to let students use modern technologies such as CMS to present e-portfolios, but the exam board wouldn't allow it. I'd guess that they wouldn't allow any custom written app by a student, no matter how revolutionary it may be; because most of the 'ict' course is judging the amount of multimedia they have in their presentation. I hope new GCSE programming courses will help address this.
    That's the thing though, I've yet to see a set of assessment criteria that was so limited as to indicate exact pieces of technology that have to be used to fulfill a task. Using the presentation example, I've seen a bunch of curriculum documents and assessment documents on this, and each time they use generic terms referring to a presentation. They don't refer to PowerPoint. They don't refer to a specific way of doing it. What happens, like in the originally linked posting, is that the teacher determines that 'presentation' means 'powerpoint'.

    An example - in my last school as part of the curriculum for year 7 or 8, the ICT teacher had to teach website design. So, I gave them Nvu. It ticked every box as to what the teacher had to teach, but after a couple of days it was determined that it wasn't good enough. I was overruled, even though no-one could give me a teaching and learning reason to buy a package, and I was made to purchase the Macromedia 8 suite for many thousands of pounds. The reason, I found out, was simply that that was what the teacher was used to!

    It seems ridiculous to me that anyone can go into a classroom to teach something and not know everything they can about it. No other job would allow it! If I came into this job here saying 'yep, i can manage a network' and then turned around half a year later and said 'well, actually, i have no experience or knowledge of windows servers, and i'm not going to learn about them' then i'd be out on my ear!

    Also, people are saying they wouldn't expect an IT teacher to know what the differences between Blu Ray/DVD/CD drives are? I would! They're teaching the subject. How can they teach a kid about those technologies if they know nothing about them? Ok, sure, I wouldn't expect them to know the exact technical details, but I'd expect them to know that each one uses a laser with a different wavelength/beam thickness etc... Why? Because those are the technologies in use in IT today. They are our portable media tools. They are used every day by the kids, and knowledge about them will aid them in life (eg. knowing a laser has to shine through the plastic tells them not to scratch the discs).

  8. #53

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    The student in that post learned one thing, always comment your code!
    Ah, but there's the thing - no he didn't. He learnt to over-comment his code. Something which is pretty much as bad as no commenting. Being presented with 3400 lines of comments for 3400 lines of code would make a pro-coder scream in pain...

    In uni, we got marked down if we put too many comments in our work.

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    MK-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    It seems ridiculous to me that anyone can go into a classroom to teach something and not know everything they can about it. No other job would allow it! If I came into this job here saying 'yep, i can manage a network' and then turned around half a year later and said 'well, actually, i have no experience or knowledge of windows servers, and i'm not going to learn about them' then i'd be out on my ear!
    But again, for an HE teacher, would you expect, as quoted earlier, them to be able to prepare a michelin star gourmet meal and cook cuisine from anywhere in the world because "they should know everything they can about it," or for a DT teacher to know how the hydraulic system on a nuclear submarine works?
    It's unrealistic to expect a teacher of a subject to know every single thing about everything they teach.
    By your example, if you apply for an IT job, then you know about every single OS, every kernel version of linux, every device driver on the planet, etc because it may one day be used?

    You not being willing to learn is a different matter altogether and I agree to an extent with you, but again, if someone said you will do network task X 100 times and 99 times you do it this way and 1 times you do it the other way, you would not spend hours researching the other way when it is a 1 in 100 task. This is similar to the students, 99% will use powerpoint, so the teacher will be geared towards that, for one kid who uses PHP and a SQL DB backend, it's an exception (for now).
    I'm not saying this is how it SHOULD be done, but I can definitely understand a teacher not learning how to code in VB/C#/PHP just in case one student one day might do a project in it

  10. #55


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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    But again, for an HE teacher, would you expect, as quoted earlier, them to be able to prepare a michelin star gourmet meal and cook cuisine from anywhere in the world
    But we aren't talking about everything, everything which is relevant to the course plus a bit more yes, imo. Given the instructions yes I would expect a HE teacher to be able to cook just about anything to a decent enough standard. Could the same be said about an IT teacher and HTML, which lets be right about it, is quite a standard part of IT?

    Disclaimer: No I'm not saying they should know HTML off by heart, hell I don't know much, but I can write a basic web page from scratch in notepad which would be enough for GCSE IT.

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    You'd at least expect them to be able to use Google to find enough out about just about any IT subject; that's what most of us do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    But we aren't talking about everything, everything which is relevant to the course plus a bit more yes, imo. Given the instructions yes I would expect a HE teacher to be able to cook just about anything to a decent enough standard. Could the same be said about an IT teacher and HTML, which lets be right about it, is quite a standard part of IT?

    Disclaimer: No I'm not saying they should know HTML off by heart, hell I don't know much, but I can write a basic web page from scratch in notepad which would be enough for GCSE IT.
    Granted, but where does it stop? If it is learning everything for a course, and the course says do a presentation, said teacher learns a bit of HTML then a kid does a presentation using javascript. So he learns that and the next year a kid does a presentation using a C# program and various dll's.
    As I said, I'm not disagreeing, it would be nice to have an IT teacher who knows certain things more than just how to teach office, but to expect it as a standard is a bit off at the moment.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    But again, for an HE teacher, would you expect, as quoted earlier, them to be able to prepare a michelin star gourmet meal and cook cuisine from anywhere in the world because "they should know everything they can about it," or for a DT teacher to know how the hydraulic system on a nuclear submarine works?
    It's unrealistic to expect a teacher of a subject to know every single thing about everything they teach.
    By your example, if you apply for an IT job, then you know about every single OS, every kernel version of linux, every device driver on the planet, etc because it may one day be used?

    You not being willing to learn is a different matter altogether and I agree to an extent with you, but again, if someone said you will do network task X 100 times and 99 times you do it this way and 1 times you do it the other way, you would not spend hours researching the other way when it is a 1 in 100 task. This is similar to the students, 99% will use powerpoint, so the teacher will be geared towards that, for one kid who uses PHP and a SQL DB backend, it's an exception (for now).
    I'm not saying this is how it SHOULD be done, but I can definitely understand a teacher not learning how to code in VB/C#/PHP just in case one student one day might do a project in it
    No, I wouldn't expect them to know every Michelin star meal and cook it all - but they are cooking teachers, so they should be able to pick it up very quickly, and teach it. A more comparable example would be them not knowing how to use a potato masher. I don't expect an IT teacher to know how a SAN works, or how iSCSI works. They aren't every day tools, much like cuisine from all over the world isn't every day cooking, but if they were asked about it, I'd expect them to know how to find out about it and then learn the basics.

    You can't compare a teaching job to an IT job either, as the 2 are very different. If I applied to be a DBA, I'd be expected to know pretty much everything about the DBMS that I was employed to use. As I work in a general IT management role, instead I am expected to be able to learn how to use all the technologies I work with, or if that isn't possible, know how to get someone in who does know about it.

    A teacher is supposed to be providing education to every child in their class with the same level of commitment as every other one. Basically what you're saying is that you understand when they can't be bothered to learn to do their best for that 1% who are far ahead the rest? Seems like allowing mediocrity in a classroom to me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk
    You can't compare a teaching job to an IT job either, as the 2 are very different.
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No other job would allow it! If I came into this job here saying 'yep, i can manage a network' and then turned around half a year later and said 'well, actually, i have no experience or knowledge of windows servers, and i'm not going to learn about them' then i'd be out on my ear!
    erm, you just did. yes, i know you'll say you weren't comparing them and before its said, i didnt compare the two either, i merely used a task performed 100 times as an example of two differing jobs.

    my point is still that where does it end? so you wouldn't expect an IT teacher to know about a SAN, fair enough, but you'd expect him to know the difference between a DVD and bluray. ok, so he goes and googles it, has that made him a better teacher?

    oh and please don't start with the "what you are saying is". i did not say mediocrity is fine, please stop trying to twist my words. so child x goes to the teacher and says ive done my coursework in c#. great, the teacher has no idea how to understand it. now how long does it take the teacher on top of all the other stuff they have to do (because this isn't a teacher bashing thread, i know teachers do have other tasks) to learn c# to a level he can understand that one piece of coursework? lets say he does it, and now knows enough about c# to mark it. next year a student says ive done it in php. should he then learn php, and every other variation of coding out there on the offchance a student might use it?

    wouldn't you rather the teacher said "thats great, i think we should get you on a course outside of here where you can really progress" not just "well ive googled what c# is and that looks quite good, you get a B". we shouldn't be expecting an IT teacher to be a master of all things IT related in the field. lets face it, if we were masters of general IT this site wouldn't exist.

    the closest thing i can think of is that a driving instructor is there to teach you how to drive. they know the laws of the road, how to operate a car and how to teach you in those respects. it is safe to assume not all of them know what each and every part under the bonnet does, or even have a working knowledge of exactly how an engine works. so why should an IT teacher know off by heart what every single component in a PC does and how to replace them?
    again, i am not saying i agree that IT teachers know very little of IT, but i also think its unfair to expect them to be wildly knowledgeable in it either when for the majority part their job doesn't warrant it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    As I said, I'm not disagreeing, it would be nice to have an IT teacher who knows certain things more than just how to teach office, but to expect it as a standard is a bit off at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    i also think its unfair to expect them to be wildly knowledgeable in it either when for the majority part their job doesn't warrant it.
    And that is exactly why we are no longer world leaders in anything.

    In the last few months we have had numerous posts on how we need a highly educated workforce to compete in this world; cost of uni going up, less chances for the next generation, that kind of thing. How can we get there by keeping the status quo?

    IMO there should only be a very low percentage of kids at GCSE who surpass their teachers in any given subject, but in IT that figure is probably (approaching) a majority. How many kids when you were at school knew* more about maths than the maths teacher? Science, history, just about anything except IT.

    *Knew as in knowledge, not ability.
    Last edited by j17sparky; 16th November 2011 at 10:11 PM.

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