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General Chat Thread, The M5 crash in General; Originally Posted by Pyroman The problem is that you're expecting that the drivers can see the pileup, if you're driving ...
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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroman View Post
    The problem is that you're expecting that the drivers can see the pileup, if you're driving down a clear motorway at 70 and you see a patch of fog/somke/whatever and slow down to say 50, if there's a car or pileup or bale of hay in the road then you're going to hit it. You were not to know that lurking 10 feet into the cloud is a ruddy great big pileup and no ammount of slowing down or sensible driving is going to stop that
    See, I'd still say 50 is far too fast in fog on a wet motorway at night. Interesting paper on this though here - http://www.lcurve.org/writings/Fog.pdf

    A
    lso, something that this makes me wonder - would this sort of thing have happened if cars all had automatic braking systems (ie. that use radar etc...)?

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    garoc's Avatar
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    Hey Guys n Gals

    Give MK-2 a break will ya's! He (going by the avatar) is fully entitled to his opinion, as are all of you! Until we are advised by whomever decides what was the cause, we aint gonna know! Perhaps the only person who can tell us exactly what happened, was one of the unfortunates that perished in such a tragic, and possibly avoidable accident....

    If I can be frank, the Wifey & I regularly drive that stretch of the M5 visiting friends/Family in Nottingham, and bear witness to some quite horrendous acts of madness by some folk, men, women, old folk, Company Reps, van drivers, lorry drivers....you name it....all shapes and sizes.....absolute MUPPETS some of them!!. IMHO it was/is just a matter of time before one (or more) of those mindless, inconsiderate Mo-Fo's took others with them to an early grave!!

    Harsh I know, and criticize/slag me off if you will, but just my observation & opinion!!

    Further musings.....
    You wouldn't give an 8 year-old an AK-47, so why give a 17 year-old a 3-series Beamer after passing his/her test 1st time driving a 1.2 fiesta/focus, and expect them to be the safest driver on the planet???

  3. #48

    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Also, something that this makes me wonder - would this sort of thing have happened if cars all had automatic braking systems (ie. that use radar etc...)?
    If it allowed for the unexpected, sudden stop, it would work. But nothing would move, very far anyway. It would only allow for a normal stopping distance plus a safety margin. If you look at video of jack-knifing lorries they do some unexpected movements.

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    Pyroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    See, I'd still say 50 is far too fast in fog on a wet motorway at night. Interesting paper on this though here - http://www.lcurve.org/writings/Fog.pdf

    A
    lso, something that this makes me wonder - would this sort of thing have happened if cars all had automatic braking systems (ie. that use radar etc...)?
    50 was an example and as for radar braking, provided that it could "see" through the smoke and for a reasonable braking distance in front (i.e. the accident wasn't on a blind bend) then i don't see why they shouldn't work

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    DT2
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    I certainly think that this was a pretty unavoidable incident once the first vehicle 'tatered it. 0 visibility, even slowing to 50 would have helped little.
    But once thing I'm certain of is this: We've all seen people driving like lunatics, tailgating doing 80 in the rain, fog, snow etc. They are out there, and we all know it. Sometimes it just doesn't matter how careful you are, or how slowly you drive, #### just happens.
    It's not down to us to judge or blame, but there's nothing that says we can't debate, even have conflicting opinions. So, seriously, neg repping because someone's opinion is different from yours!?!
    Motorway, fog, smoke, speed - #### will invariably happen! Remove all of the above variable factors and people still manage to cause issues.
    I'm completely indifferent - as I'm sure are most of you. I can see 'reasons' why things like this happen, but I can also see how this could be absolutely unavoidable.

    DT

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    A[/URL]lso, something that this makes me wonder - would this sort of thing have happened if cars all had automatic braking systems (ie. that use radar etc...)?
    Is it the VW's that have this fitted as standard now? I'm sure I saw on the TV advert in the small print that the system only operates at speeds under 30MPH, so in this case they wouldn't have been any use at all... It is interesting though where that is going, even if the car senses an emergency stop is required and applies the brakes half a second quicker than you can react, it is a potential life saver...

    Saw this a while ago too and found it very interesting: Road train technology can drive your car for you - tech - 18 January 2011 - New Scientist

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    Pyroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    Is it the VW's that have this fitted as standard now? I'm sure I saw on the TV advert in the small print that the system only operates at speeds under 30MPH, so in this case they wouldn't have been any use at all... It is interesting though where that is going, even if the car senses an emergency stop is required and applies the brakes half a second quicker than you can react, it is a potential life saver...

    Saw this a while ago too and found it very interesting: Road train technology can drive your car for you - tech - 18 January 2011 - New Scientist
    Ford focus i believe and it's 19MPH

  8. Thanks to Pyroman from:

    LosOjos (7th November 2011)

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    A[/URL]lso, something that this makes me wonder - would this sort of thing have happened if cars all had automatic braking systems (ie. that use radar etc...)?
    As said, jack knife lorries probably wouldn't work. In fact any obstruction coming in perpendicular probably couldn't be adjusted for quick enough, and even if it was it would rely on each car behind having equal or better brakes and tyres than the car in front.

    Hope that makes sense. Example. Car A is doing 50 in lane 1, you are doing 70 in lane 2, car A makes a sharp overtaking manoeuvre into your lane putting them well within your braking distance, your system slams on but it will not be good enough, and even if it is the car behind you has to be able to brake equally or better than you did. Then the car behind them has to be able to brake equally or harder than that car...

    Also, and possibly why it is only applied at under 19mph (as per above post), if the system slams on your brakes at high speeds without accounting for road conditions you could easily spin out. Whether this would be better or worse would depend on the situation and probably mostly luck.
    Last edited by j17sparky; 7th November 2011 at 03:40 PM.

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    Ford Focus With Active City Stop - YouTube

    and check out stanford and google's autonomous cars

    also @localzuk Interesting article, like it!
    Last edited by Pyroman; 7th November 2011 at 03:45 PM.

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    We are only human. All it takes is one driver to be distracted buy a flash or bang and the a domino effect comes into play. Accidents happen, no matter what safeguards are put into place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroman View Post
    Ford Focus With Active City Stop - YouTube

    and check out stanford and google's autonomous cars
    A video saying "look at our car, you don't even have to pay attention when you are driving in traffic" - great.

    Is it just me who has issues with all these new "toys" which mean you don't have to pay attention to what you are doing?

    Like that other one "missed that road sign? Well your car didn't". You shouldn't be f'in missing road signs!

    Or "Can't park? Well this car parks for you". No, how about you learn to drive properly, including parking, before you get behind the wheel of a potential killing machine!


    And breath

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    Pyroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    A video saying "look at our car, you don't even have to pay attention when you are driving in traffic" - great.

    Is it just me who has issues with all these new "toys" which mean you don't have to pay attention to what you are doing?

    Like that other one "missed that road sign? Well your car didn't". You shouldn't be f'in missing road signs!

    Or "Can't park? Well this car parks for you". No, how about you learn to drive properly, including parking, before you get behind the wheel of a potential killing machine!


    And breath
    They're useful for preventing accidents and could react far quicker than you can, but like you said people should be looking where they're going

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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    A video saying "look at our car, you don't even have to pay attention when you are driving in traffic" - great.

    Is it just me who has issues with all these new "toys" which mean you don't have to pay attention to what you are doing?

    Like that other one "missed that road sign? Well your car didn't". You shouldn't be f'in missing road signs!

    Or "Can't park? Well this car parks for you". No, how about you learn to drive properly, including parking, before you get behind the wheel of a potential killing machine!


    And breath
    That is a separate issue but one I totally agree with. The drivers who assume that because they paid 80k for their car and its ceramic brakes they can take advantage by speeding more and leaving less braking distance.....just because your 80k car can stop in half the time a normal car can doesn't mean the car behind you can stop in that time too. putting too much reliance on the system and not enough on user interaction will lead to more lapses (i only listen to sat nav, i dont read the road signs etc)

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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    A video saying "look at our car, you don't even have to pay attention when you are driving in traffic" - great.

    Is it just me who has issues with all these new "toys" which mean you don't have to pay attention to what you are doing?

    Like that other one "missed that road sign? Well your car didn't". You shouldn't be f'in missing road signs!

    Or "Can't park? Well this car parks for you". No, how about you learn to drive properly, including parking, before you get behind the wheel of a potential killing machine!


    And breath
    Agreed, except for the automatic breaking - the point is a machine can react much quicker than you can, but you still need to react!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroman View Post
    They're useful for preventing accidents and could react far quicker than you can, but like you said people should be looking where they're going
    I think the issue is not the system buts its advertised use, and the inevitable result that people will rely on them and pay even less attention to the road.

    I haven't got a problem with something which saves my life as a back up to my own ability but something which parks my car for me!... What about when the system breaks, which is will at some point as cars are left out in the rain, snow, salted roads, dodgy mechanics, etc. And what happens when you have learned to rely on the system which saves your life but that pothole you drove over 5 minutes ago has knocked it out of action?

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