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General Chat Thread, The M5 crash in General; Originally Posted by teejay It gets attributed to the firework smoke, you are jumping to conclusions that the drivers weren't ...
  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    It gets attributed to the firework smoke, you are jumping to conclusions that the drivers weren't driving at safe speeds and distances to cope with the the small amount of fog, adding in a solid wall of smoke suddenly changed those conditions.
    Right, OK, I see I'm getting nowhere fast here!

    Let us say an accident happens tomorrow, two cars collide and come to a stop. Usually that is where an accident will end. Now if 20 other cars, vans and lorries pile up into the back of it, what is the cause of the pileup (not the initial accident)?
    The initial accident may well have been caused by the fireworks (and for those saying stop jumping to conclusions about speed, how about you stop jumping to conclusions about firework smoke!), but the police have already stated they are investigating the possibility of excessive speed and tailgating.
    So should they just call off their investigations as it's blindingly obvious only the smoke is at fault here, let us hang the person responsible and carry on?

    Just one other thing (Columbo style)....if the heavens suddenly opened and it pelted it down with hail and rain as it sometimes does, that is a sudden change in driving conditions. If you were then to hit the car in front at full speed, are you blaming the clouds?
    Last edited by MK-2; 7th November 2011 at 03:22 PM.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post
    Hitting a wall of fog and smoke is incredibly disorientating. It would be sudden, unless everyone drive everywhere at 20 MPH in case they come across this type of freak condition, and most likely unavoidable.
    It was already dark, foggy and wet, so I would have assumed a slower speed would already be taken.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    It was already dark, foggy and wet, so I would have assumed a slower speed would already be taken.
    How much slower?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    No one at the fireworks display was driving the cars and it's always possible that some hazzard will manifest itself. Safety is ALWAYS the responsibility of the drivers of the vehicles.
    Oh come off it. If I stood on a bridge and dropped a brick on your car while you drove under it causing a massive pileup it would be your fault?


    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post
    Hitting a wall of fog and smoke is incredibly disorientating. It would be sudden, unless everyone drive everywhere at 20 MPH in case they come across this type of freak condition, and most likely unavoidable.
    ^ This



    I was driving at rush hour over a very busy roundabout at rush hour. The nursing home just next to the roundabout had decided rush hour was the most appropriate time to be having a bonfire and firework display, launching the rockets away from the home and over the roundabout. The smoke from the bonfire was also blowing over the roundabout...

    Before I even heard about the M5 crash and its possible cause I thought the organisers of the firework display at the nursing home should be shot.
    Last edited by j17sparky; 7th November 2011 at 03:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post
    How much slower?
    I'm sorry is this a theory test for me, or are you suggesting you wouldn't have slowed down?

    One other point to note, I'm not suggesting EVERY driver there was speeding or tailgating, some, maybe all might have stopped in time, but for the unlucky few who had someone speeding or tailgating behind them, they are still in danger.
    So before anyone starts getting all "holier than thou" with me, even if YOU were driving at an appropriate speed, if I'm still speeding behind you, chances are I'm wiping you out as I hit you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    Oh come off it. If I stood on a bridge and dropped a brick on your car while you drove under it causing a massive pileup it would be your fault?
    And if you drove into fog at 70mph and caused a massive pileup, are you blaming god? (fog as in general, not firework smoke, so we are both being impartial to the original topic)

    Also, in answer to your question, no, not your fault. But if you drop a brick through a window, you have affected one car. If the people behind that car fail to slow down in time then THEY are the pileup, not you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    And if you drove into fog at 70mph and caused a massive pileup, are you blaming god? (fog as in general, not firework smoke, so we are both being impartial to the original topic)

    Also, in answer to your question, no, not your fault. But if you drop a brick through a window, you have affected one car. If the people behind that car fail to slow down in time then THEY are the pileup, not you.

    Point is we don't know there was fog, certainly not a bank of smoke like is suspected. As the other post said sometimes banks of fog/smoke are very sudden and incredibly disorientating. This isn't the first pile up on a major road which has been attributed to people having fires in inappropriate places.

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    I'm sorry is this a theory test for me, or are you suggesting you wouldn't have slowed down?

    One other point to note, I'm not suggesting EVERY driver there was speeding or tailgating, some, maybe all might have stopped in time, but for the unlucky few who had someone speeding or tailgating behind them, they are still in danger.
    So before anyone starts getting all "holier than thou" with me, even if YOU were driving at an appropriate speed, if I'm still speeding behind you, chances are I'm wiping you out as I hit you.
    If it had been foggy I personally would have been off at the first junction.

    Would I have slowed down, I don't know. As I said, it's 'incredibly' disorientating. Unless you have experienced a complete and sudden White-out you have no way of knowing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    Point is we don't know there was fog
    Apart from pretty much all news sites having some form of quote stating there was fog.
    I don't disagree that a sudden fog/smoke bank would be very disorientating, but if it is shown there was fog and ground water, then wouldn't you hope that cars and lorries were already a safe distance from each other even before this bank of smoke hit?
    If you were doing 70mph in fog and sitting a few feet from the car in front, then even in broad daylight your chances of stopping before hitting them are slim. That is all I'm saying, I am not blaming speed as the only factor (as per my original post) I am saying that speed/tailgating are also an attributable factor

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    [QUOTE=j17sparky;751296]Oh come off it. If I stood on a bridge and dropped a brick on your car while you drove under it causing a massive pileup it would be your fault?

    I was going to add "unless a plane falls on you from above" but thought no one would be quite that pedantic. I should have known...

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    [QUOTE=pcstru;751306]
    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    Oh come off it. If I stood on a bridge and dropped a brick on your car while you drove under it causing a massive pileup it would be your fault?

    I was going to add "unless a plane falls on you from above" but thought no one would be quite that pedantic. I should have known...
    No ones being pedantic. Your post clearly says the drivers should be ready for any hazard. Me stating that it is a daft position to take is not being pedantic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    No ones being pedantic. Your post clearly says the drivers should be ready for any hazard. Me stating that it is a daft position to take is not being pedantic.
    It is pedantic in a discussion of a motorway pile-up where 30 odd cars have ploughed into the ones crashing in-front.
    Last edited by pcstru; 7th November 2011 at 03:46 PM.

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    I believe the safe stopping distance is to allow for your delayed reaction to the vehicle in front braking and stopping. It does not take into account a sudden stop due to that vehicle hitting and immovable object.

    If a lorry jack-knifed and the trailer started coming back toward you....

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    Apart from pretty much all news sites having some form of quote stating there was fog.
    I don't disagree that a sudden fog/smoke bank would be very disorientating, but if it is shown there was fog and ground water, then wouldn't you hope that cars and lorries were already a safe distance from each other even before this bank of smoke hit?
    If you were doing 70mph in fog and sitting a few feet from the car in front, then even in broad daylight your chances of stopping before hitting them are slim. That is all I'm saying, I am not blaming speed as the only factor (as per my original post) I am saying that speed/tailgating are also an attributable factor
    I would agree but we don't know people were doing that - they probably were but not all of them.


    A few of my mates are HGV drivers. One of them was pulling a heavy load on the major carriageway through the North East. He came to the crest of a hill and was immediately confronted by a broken down car which wasn't pulled far enough off the road. "But by the grace of god" he managed to avoid them. If he hadn't been on the ball... If a car had been beside him... If the car had been slightly further out into the road...

    Point is shat happens, and to blame it on the motorists and their speed is just as knee jerk as the media saying there was a firework display so it must have been that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    It is pedantic in a discussion of a motorway pile-up where 30 odd cars have ploughed into the ones crashing in-front.
    Eh? tbh I have no idea what you are talking about.



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