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General Chat Thread, Unison and other Unions Strike 30/11/2011 in General; So, that is basically saying that the scheme is running in deficit, and the government is trying to reduce the ...
  1. #61

    localzuk's Avatar
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    So, that is basically saying that the scheme is running in deficit, and the government is trying to reduce the burden on taxpayers too, as it is them who are currently footing a large chunk of the bill.

    Still not seeing a big problem here.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrCheese View Post
    Hilarious.
    I want the benefits of a unions legal protection. I give them money for that. What's hard to grasp?

    They offer this service, I pay for it. It's not really my problem if they don't like me doing it, as they have no rules against me doing it.
    Well just do whatevers best for you then. It doesn't matter about anybody else.

  3. #63
    DrCheese's Avatar
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    That of course ignores that my members fees are currently be used to fight battles for other members of the union + It's highly unlikely I'll ever need the support (touch wood) So long term, my fees are directly benefiting others.

    So no, your statement above is just silly.
    Last edited by DrCheese; 4th November 2011 at 11:25 AM.

  4. #64

    CPLTD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    The Greek situation is what happens when you have decades of incompetence in power, allowing black markets to operate etc... The people are rioting because they don't want their gravy train to end, but it will, whatever happens. If the deal goes through, things will change there. If the deal doesn't go through, their economy will crash, mass unemployment will occur, and things will change there. So, the rioting is ill-conceived and wrong.
    Seriously localzuk - the gravy train! ha ha So presumably you think that is what is happening here also? You strike me as the original ToryBoy with some of your views. Your disposal income must be a lot higher than most of us! No-one there or in the UK look like they have been on the gravy train and I have to be honest other than the top 5% of earners in either country no-one is laying back in luxury are they? How is it okay to punish the Greek people for the "decades of incompetence in power, allowing black markets to operate etc" and likewise, how is it okay to do so here?

    Seems wrong to me.

    The people elected the government, they didn't ask them to ruin them financially did they - or did I miss that bit??


    Chris

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrCheese View Post
    That of course ignores that my members fees are currently be used to fight battles for other members of the union + It's highly unlikely I'll ever need the support (touch wood)

    So no, your statement above is just silly.
    You say highly unlikely you will need their support. What about the people who are unfairly dismissed? Or victimised to the point they can no longer work there? The union may be able to fight them to protect your reputation, whilst agreeing a severance package that will likely equate to many times more than your lifetime union subscription costs.

  6. #66
    DrCheese's Avatar
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    Yes... and the union can do that using the fees that I pay them. So they are benefiting people other than just me.

  7. #67

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPLTD View Post
    Seriously localzuk - the gravy train! ha ha So presumably you think that is what is happening here also? You strike me as the original ToryBoy with some of your views. Your disposal income must be a lot higher than most of us! No-one there or in the UK look like they have been on the gravy train and I have to be honest other than the top 5% of earners in either country no-one is laying back in luxury are they.? How is it okay to punish the Greek people for the "decades of incompetence in power, allowing black markets to operate etc" and likewise, how is it okay to do so here?

    Seems wrong to me.

    The people elected the government, they didn't ask them to ruin them financially did they - or did I miss that bit??

    Chris
    You do realise that various studies of Greece by world economists all come to the same conclusion - that at least 40% of all economic activity there has up till now been done via the black market, eg. cash in hand etc...

    My disposable income is currently pretty good, yes, however it hasn't been for the last 5 years because of university debts and not being able to get a student loan (ie. having £20k on normal loans/credit cards). At stages during that time, my income was around 30% lower than my outgoings. It has only been through hard work that I have resolved this, not via handouts or 'entitlement'.

    It is unfair that the current generation of people in Greece are being punished for their historic incompetence, but how else do you resolve the financial woes they have there? There debt is 150% of their GDP!

    The people elect their government, so they are responsible for the good and the bad that they do!

    Also, I'm not in any way a Tory. I'm a realist.

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    I'm in a union and will strike even though i'm not a member of the pension scheme. Sure the trunout was poor, voting turnout always is but when I have had a pay freeze for 3 years while the cost of living has gone up and there is the same excuses from MPs that there is no money but they still have huge pensions and a pay rise. Some public sector workers have had payrises (MPs) and others havent but ofcourse they promise they will look at their pensions etc in the future. Why are they not first to take "the pain", sadly public and private sector workers have been "in in together" when we have MPs on over £100k and the rest when they take into account their expenses but not changing their ways. Trade Union bosses ae also overpaid but when you get a minister who is earning the same as a Trade Union boss saying how overpaid they are, its kind of pot calling the kettle black.

    Sure I understand the need for cuts, we'll be on a pay freeze again next year no doubt, but benefits aren't frozen, which I don't understand why.

    Here is my quick calculation, 1,000,000 worker (unison only), then all earn say £15,000 a year. The yearly wage cost of them is £15,000,000,000 (which is alot fo money) but for 3 years they havent had a payrise (not even 1%), that is a lot of money saved out of the public sector pay pot already. Literally for a 2% payrise a year it would be 15,000,000,000 * 0.02 = £300,000,000 and that money has already been "cut" and that isn't including job cuts and this is for Unison only.

    We are paying for mistakes of the past, when money wasn't set aside for now by our parents and grandparents, when the "good times" existed we still borrowed more money. Banking didn't create the mess themselves, they had politicians to help them, you can't lend money to a government if the government doesnt want it, politicians laid the foundations for this mess over the last 20 years. Look at their wages, pensions and expenses over those years.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrCheese View Post
    Yes... and the union can do that using the fees that I pay them. So they are benefiting people other than just me.
    I don't want this to turn into something personal, so my apologies if it has come across that way. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

    It's interesting to see all the different views of the unions. Clearly they don't have the support they once did (probably due to the fat cat bosses).

  10. #70

    CPLTD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    You do realise that various studies of Greece by world economists all come to the same conclusion - that at least 40% of all economic activity there has up till now been done via the black market, eg. cash in hand etc...

    My disposable income is currently pretty good, yes, however it hasn't been for the last 5 years because of university debts and not being able to get a student loan (ie. having £20k on normal loans/credit cards). At stages during that time, my income was around 30% lower than my outgoings. It has only been through hard work that I have resolved this, not via handouts or 'entitlement'.

    It is unfair that the current generation of people in Greece are being punished for their historic incompetence, but how else do you resolve the financial woes they have there? There debt is 150% of their GDP!

    The people elect their government, so they are responsible for the good and the bad that they do!

    Also, I'm not in any way a Tory. I'm a realist.
    I didn't say a Tory, I said ToryBoy! You are missing the point again...why were they working cash in hand in the first place - because their governement was failing the country economically and because the taxes were too high - Why does any black market exist in the first place - did you study Economics localzuk?

    30% lower than your outgoings - so how did you live?

    I have also been to uni and had exactly the same debts. I also work hard, almost as hard as yourself. But yet from having to rent on my own and doing the living at home with parents to save money and so square up debts, it has taken a good while to pay all of this off. I think that if you were in the same boat now you probably appreciate where I am coming from a lot more than you do currently.

    Your points come from your curent situation and not your previous.....


    Chris

  11. #71
    DrCheese's Avatar
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    That's fine. I may have also came across a bit aggressive.

    Look, I do support the union and the whole trade movement. I am well aware that we'd still be working in 19th century workhouse conditions if organised labour didn't exist, You only have to look at the conditions in China to see that.
    If it was any other issue like a direct paycut, or job losses that make no sense I'd probably be out there. I just think this is absolutely the wrong battle to have.
    To me, the governments reasoning is sound on this, so I can not support the union this time.

  12. #72

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    I am moving to the Movember thread - it is less "hairy" over that way!


    Chris

  13. #73

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPLTD View Post
    I didn't say a Tory, I said ToryBoy! You are missing the point again...why were they working cash in hand in the first place - because their governement was failing the country economically and because the taxes were too high - Why does any black market exist in the first place - did you study Economics localzuk?
    No, didn't study economics. However, I do know that personal taxation of Greeks is less than that of France, Germany, Austria, Spain, Hungary, Sweden and a bunch more. So, the taxes being 'too high' is nonsense.

    30% lower than your outgoings - so how did you live?
    By going further into debt, and using what little savings I had managed to build up.

    I have also been to uni and had exactly the same debts. I also work hard, almost as hard as yourself. But yet from having to rent on my own and doing the living at home with parents to save money and so square up debts, it has taken a good while to pay all of this off. I think that if you were in the same boat now you probably appreciate where I am coming from a lot more than you do currently.

    Your points come from your curent situation and not your previous.....
    You have debts that aren't a 'student loan' from your uni years? That is very rare for people in the UK. I only have it like that because I'm from the Isle of Man so didn't get a student loan.

    Having spent 5 years living on a diet of noodles and pasta, not going out more than 3 times a year, not going on 'holidays', not driving etc... I'm pretty sure I know what having no money is like. However, I know that living on low income is doable and the current proposals have nothing to do with any of that.

  14. #74

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    Don't lose sight of the fact that the proposed increases in contributions are intended to improve/stabilise the LGPS; they are a pension 'tax' on local government workers, with money going straight to the treasury.

    The LGPS was overhauled a few years ago & is supposed to be in good shape now and is fully funded; if the unions allow the Govt to get away with this now, are they going to keep on coming back year on year to 'milk' local government employees of the odd £billion or two?

    There are always two sides to any argument, as usual the press is full of Government spin.... to get a more balanced view take a look at http://www.unison.org.uk/pensions/re...nd_Fiction.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgardner View Post
    I am VERY pro union membership, so I fully intend to carry out the wishes of the majority.
    Shame only 29% of people turned out. Unlikely, but could be that the other 71% don't want to strike but could NBA to vote. :P

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