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General Chat Thread, Unison and other Unions Strike 30/11/2011 in General; Originally Posted by localzuk 'Entitled', now that is a word I dislike with a passion. It is that word that ...
  1. #46

    CPLTD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    'Entitled', now that is a word I dislike with a passion. It is that word that has got us into such a mess with the benefits system and with unions.

    If you were promised something then yes you have a reasonable expectation that you will get it. However, for most people, they didn't expect that the global economy would be such a mess, or that several governments would raid pension pots and mess up the country's finances. So, your reasonable expectation has to change according to the state of the country's finances.

    It is ridiculous to expect that everything will stay the same with your pension when the rest of the economy and the government finances are basically ruined...
    This is where we disagree then......I don't think it is riddiculous to expect you are given what you are originally promised. That is why it is called a "promise" and not a "maybe" localzuk.

    Look at Greece I don't see anyone there behaving reasonably beacause they understand the government has altered their financial promises because of their failing economy do you? I think you have to be honest with yourself. Everybody has a point where they will not take anymore and if you are promised something financially then that is exactly what it is. You plan around this for your future to then be told actually it is a no go.......


    I am not even in the public sector and even I can see that.....


    Chris

  2. #47

    creese's Avatar
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    Genuine question: Are MPs benefits and pensions etc. being modified in a similar way?

    Edit: Ditto banks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    If it was a matter of '10% of the workforce being sacked, or everyone taking a 10% pay cut', then I'd take the pay cut, yes.
    it isn't though - it's about the fact that the LGPS is financially viable, takes more money than it pays but Govt are basically planning on cutting employer contributions and breaking it. Because the employer contributions will go, we'll all have to work longer and get less benefits. It's totally disproportionate Schools will save a few quid more but we'll effectively take a massive cut.

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    Simple fact for me, and I'd guess a lot of other people, is I can't afford to be paying more for my pension at the moment.

    Yes the pension deal is quite good but for people working for large corporations there are other benefits which they forget about such as really good incentives to buy shares, which as long as you play your cards right can help subsidise a pension.

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    I have literally lost count of the amount of threads on here I've read when people have been subject of unfair treatment from their employers. Many of which have had their reputation/job saved by their union rep. The same can be said about millions of people over many years.

    I think it's important to support the union, as I may need them one day for support for my own personal set of circumstances.

    If nobody supported union membership, they would seize to exist and likely operate as impersonal insurance companies.

  6. #51

    CPLTD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrCheese View Post
    So basically, even if I totally disagree with the reason for the strike, think the unions are being unreasonable, I should annoy my employer and strike anyway. Because 29% of the union voted yes?
    Ok then.
    If the turnout is that poor and you think the strike is unreasonable, then are the Union really acting in your best interest - if they aren't, why the hell are you a member. If it is just for legal reasons, then I would seriously take another look.

    I think the problem with most Unions is exactly this - they will never be as strong as they once were because their individual members consider their individual interests too much of the time rather than the collective's.


    Chris

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  8. #52

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPLTD View Post
    This is where we disagree then......I don't think it is riddiculous to expect you are given what you are originally promised. That is why it is called a "promise" and not a "maybe" localzuk.

    Look at Greece I don't see anyone there behaving reasonably beacause they understand the government has altered their financial promises because of their failing economy do you? I think you have to be honest with yourself. Everybody has a point where they will not take anymore and if you are promised something financially then that is exactly what it is. You plan around this for your future to then be told actually it is a no go.......

    I am not even in the public sector and even I can see that.....

    Chris
    You have a different view of how a society should work then - that view seems to be one where individuals can say 'to hell with the rest of the economy, i want my individual needs met above everyone else'. I don't think that's right. I think everyone has a duty to think about the country as a whole, and how their individual pulls on the government's coffers is affecting others.

    The Greek situation is what happens when you have decades of incompetence in power, allowing black markets to operate etc... The people are rioting because they don't want their gravy train to end, but it will, whatever happens. If the deal goes through, things will change there. If the deal doesn't go through, their economy will crash, mass unemployment will occur, and things will change there. So, the rioting is ill-conceived and wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd View Post
    it isn't though - it's about the fact that the LGPS is financially viable, takes more money than it pays but Govt are basically planning on cutting employer contributions and breaking it. Because the employer contributions will go, we'll all have to work longer and get less benefits. It's totally disproportionate Schools will save a few quid more but we'll effectively take a massive cut.
    The LGPS might be viable right now, but can you say that it will be in 10 years time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrCheese View Post
    So basically, even if I totally disagree with the reason for the strike, think the unions are being unreasonable, I should annoy my employer and strike anyway. Because 29% of the union voted yes?
    Ok then.
    Why would it annoy your employer? I would hate to work for somebody like that.

    So why not leave a union and take out some legal cover? Oh wait, I guess you want all the benefits of union membership for yourself, it doesn't matter about anybody else.

    I truly hope you never have to count on them for support over work placed bullying, or an unfair disciplinary, or an untrue allegation that could drag your name through the mud.

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    I love to hear the word 'democracy' thrown around with regards to voting in unions, elections, etc.

    Let's face it ... democracy only means you have the freedom to vote. Personally I would prefer voting to be compulsory, or to have better publicity of proxy votes for things like union decisions. Remember, spoiling papers or abstaining is always an option too.

    I have been told by my Union that they are obviously supportive of the stance of other unions in the strike and the reasons why, and they still have a number of concerns around the improved offer, but it is too late to ballot for 30th, but they may ballot us in future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    The LGPS might be viable right now, but can you say that it will be in 10 years time?
    Yes, it was independently reviewed by the Audit Commission in 2010 and estimated to be at least 75% funded with sufficient assets to pay all pensions due for the next 20 years without any further contributions.

  12. #56

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgardner View Post
    Why would it annoy your employer? I would hate to work for somebody like that.

    So why not leave a union and take out some legal cover? Oh wait, I guess you want all the benefits of union membership for yourself, it doesn't matter about anybody else.

    I truly hope you never have to count on them for support over work placed bullying, or an unfair disciplinary, or an untrue allegation that could drag your name through the mud.
    People keep saying why not take legal cover out, but as yet I don't actually know of any such insurance schemes around. Can you point me to a legal cover scheme that covers the sort of things we'd need it for in a school?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgardner View Post
    Why would it annoy your employer? I would hate to work for somebody like that.

    So why not leave a union and take out some legal cover? Oh wait, I guess you want all the benefits of union membership for yourself, it doesn't matter about anybody else.

    I truly hope you never have to count on them for support over work placed bullying, or an unfair disciplinary, or an untrue allegation that could drag your name through the mud.
    Hilarious.
    I want the benefits of a unions legal protection. I give them money for that. What's hard to grasp?

    They offer this service, I pay for it. It's not really my problem if they don't like me doing it, as they have no rules against me doing it.
    Last edited by DrCheese; 4th November 2011 at 11:11 AM.

  14. #58

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd View Post
    Yes, it was independently reviewed by the Audit Commission in 2010 and estimated to be at least 75% funded with sufficient assets to pay all pensions due for the next 20 years without any further contributions.
    75% funded? So where do the other 25% come from? And only 20 years? That doesn't sound right to me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    75% funded? So where do the other 25% come from? And only 20 years? That doesn't sound right to me...
    I Quote

    One reason for current
    deficits is that LGPS funds were between 1990 and 1993
    encouraged by the then Conservative government to fund
    only to 75% so the pension scheme could fund lower
    poll tax bills. Now deficits are measured against a 100%
    funding requirement, the cost of this historic underfunding
    is clear. Changes to benefits would only affect the future
    service cost which, as set out above, is already below
    the private sector average for defined benefit provision.
    The 3.2% increase in member contributions announced
    by George Osborne in October 2010 will not improve the
    scheme’s funding level. Quite the reverse. The additional
    income will pass through the scheme to the Treasury as
    employer contributions to the LGPS are reduced by the
    same amount as the increase in employee contributions
    (1.04bn). This money is being deducted from council and
    devolved budgets thereby reducing the income to the
    majority of LGPS employers.

    www.unison.org.uk/acrobat/19834.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    People keep saying why not take legal cover out, but as yet I don't actually know of any such insurance schemes around. Can you point me to a legal cover scheme that covers the sort of things we'd need it for in a school?
    I believe it's normally tagged onto polices like home insurance for an added cost. It could cover your costs in many areas, including Employment Law disputes

  17. Thanks to Gardinho from:

    CPLTD (4th November 2011)

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