Unison and other Unions Strike 30/11/2011

[MK-2]

I am a senior tech, so that proves my point!

I think area also plays a part. As @nephilim stated, private school NMs are on about 39k where he is, which I'm nowhere near. So there will be a big price difference between areas

[Nickev]

I can see that yes, I do understand (I started on about 14k at my last place I mentioned). The point I was trying to get at was that a private sector (not just private school, anywhere private, even say a call centre) employee on 16k will not get employer contribution, so although you and he are on the same wage he will have a little extra to pay just to match the amount going into your pension. Yes, I agree it sucks that the amount you pay in may go up but the employer will still be adding to it, regardless. Person X won't have anyone else adding to it.
But yes, I do see your point and completely understand what you mean

Cheers MK2 - always good to end hitting some middle ground!

[GrumbleDook]

@Nickev
Even after Single Status / Pay & Benefits reviews you will still get Person A in school Y being called a Junior Tech and Person B in School Z being called Senior Tech, and they can be the junior of the 2 staff doing IT supportplaining it. (the other being a Network Manager), be doing *exactly* the same job with pretty much the exact same JD ... and be paid exactly the same. Job names still means little.

I know of people with the title of ICT Technician paid more than someone with the job of Network Manager.

There is just no explaining it at times ...

[witch]

...and there are certainly many of us who are called IT techs, paid as IT techs and are doing the job of a Network Manager..
bitter, moi??

[MK-2]

bitter, moi??

don't worry, i don't think it showed.....although there is still a bit of venom on your chin you might want to wipe away

[witch]

pffffftttttt....

[Earthling]

...and there are certainly many of us who are called IT techs, paid as IT techs and are doing the job of a Network Manager..
bitter, moi??

You want some Gin with that Bitters?

[penfold]

fine, make the salary range higher, then it applies....oh and a private school I worked at, junior tech was on 16k

Thing is with this is that Junior techs in education often start on a lot less that 16K and have no chance of getting up that high in the scale. I started on 11K and I still see many tech positions advertised on a stupidly low scale for what you know they will be doing(regardless of what the advert says).

To me, I see it like this. We have had low pay with limited increases, a Pay review which resulted in lots of people either loosing money or taking on more responsibility to keep their wage and now a reduction in pension while having to pay more in. I have no problem with paying more or working longer if that what is needed. But I dont like the way it has created an "us and then" situation with references to tax payers and public workers. I pay my taxes too, it's not like we are taking money that we haven't paid into. And any changes that are proposed I expect to happen to everyone(which from my understanding isn't the case). The plus sides to working in the public sector were the flexible working hours, secure job and good pension. The jobs are no longer secure, the flexible working hours are not available everywhere and the good pension is going. It is not suprising that it is a sensitive area but if they reduce the pension now we will never get it back.

Anyone else notice the similarity between the pensions and pay review. Often instead of bringing staff up to sensible levels of pay by comparing people who were paid the appropriate amount for their jobs, wages were kept low by using underpaid comparitors. Now it seems rather than look at the pensions as a whole, we are being told we should be gratefull for our pension as it is better than private ones. So why not look at the way private pensions are run? I cant help feeling that the only people who will be ok at retirement age, are those already with money and investments in property. I doubt many will be relying on a pension.

[Earthling]

<snip>
I pay my taxes too, it's not like we are taking money that we haven't paid into. <snip>

As I said earlier in this thread.....'Divide and Rule'.

All the time the Govt/Establishment can create a rift between public sector workers and private sector, employed and unemployed, pensioned and pensionless, Union members and Non-Union members (the list goes on and on), we are easier to manage and we don't see the real injustices and inequalities that are perpetrated on us as a whole society.

[MK-2]

As I said earlier in this thread.....'Divide and Rule'.

All the time the Govt/Establishment can create a rift between public sector workers and private sector, employed and unemployed, pensioned and pensionless, Union members and Non-Union members (the list goes on and on), we are easier to manage and we don't see the real injustices and inequalities that are perpetrated on us as a whole society.

Isn't it more people thinking like you that creates the rift?
If I told you I had researched something and all black people were criminals, do you suddenly form a rift between whites and blacks, or do you form your own opinions based on YOUR thoughts not on mine? Just because I've said something doesn't mean the whole country now follows me.

Rift between public and private sector? Why? Do you hate private sector workers? Rift between employed and unemployed - again, if I were to say "I hate unemployed people" it doesn't mean the "Establishment" has guided me that way.

You create your own rifts, opinions and thoughts, not any government or the Illuminati!

[Rydra]

Isn't it more people thinking like you that creates the rift?
If I told you I had researched something and all black people were criminals, do you suddenly form a rift between whites and blacks, or do you form your own opinions based on YOUR thoughts not on mine? Just because I've said something doesn't mean the whole country now follows me.

Rift between public and private sector? Why? Do you hate private sector workers? Rift between employed and unemployed - again, if I were to say "I hate unemployed people" it doesn't mean the "Establishment" has guided me that way.

You create your own rifts, opinions and thoughts, not any government or the Illuminati!

Huh?

Gov states that PS pensions need revising, and we should be glad we're not stuck with Private sector ones = creating a rift.
Deciding to lay off 10% of the PS workforce, because it's cheaper to pay them unemployment money = creating a rift.
People in unions that threaten to strike being marked by the press and the government with too many cliche's to list = creating a rift.

Sure, people make their own opinions, but the government has very clearly done it too, and clearly pidgeon holed us all.
The "Concession" made last week by them benefits mostly the rich and close to retirement. It does not help me, or many other PS workers.

[localzuk]

Huh?

Gov states that PS pensions need revising, and we should be glad we're not stuck with Private sector ones = creating a rift.
Deciding to lay off 10% of the PS workforce, because it's cheaper to pay them unemployment money = creating a rift.
People in unions that threaten to strike being marked by the press and the government with too many cliche's to list = creating a rift.

Sure, people make their own opinions, but the government has very clearly done it too, and clearly pidgeon holed us all.
The "Concession" made last week by them benefits mostly the rich and close to retirement. It does not help me, or many other PS workers.

No, it is still you creating the rift. It is you deciding that another group of people are better or worse off than you and therefore 'bad'.

You do not have to buy into this stuff... Rifts are formed based on your own opinions. Don't form such opinions and no rifts will occur.

[Earthling]

Isn't it more people thinking like you that creates the rift?
If I told you I had researched something and all black people were criminals, do you suddenly form a rift between whites and blacks, or do you form your own opinions based on YOUR thoughts not on mine? Just because I've said something doesn't mean the whole country now follows me.

Rift between public and private sector? Why? Do you hate private sector workers? Rift between employed and unemployed - again, if I were to say "I hate unemployed people" it doesn't mean the "Establishment" has guided me that way.

You create your own rifts, opinions and thoughts, not any government or the Illuminati!

It won't let me post just this so I've had to add some text.

[MK-2]

Huh?

Gov states that PS pensions need revising, and we should be glad we're not stuck with Private sector ones = creating a rift.
Deciding to lay off 10% of the PS workforce, because it's cheaper to pay them unemployment money = creating a rift.
People in unions that threaten to strike being marked by the press and the government with too many cliche's to list = creating a rift.

Sure, people make their own opinions, but the government has very clearly done it too, and clearly pidgeon holed us all.
The "Concession" made last week by them benefits mostly the rich and close to retirement. It does not help me, or many other PS workers.

My reply is pretty much as @localzuk says above. The rift is created by you. For this example, the unions have given examples, the government have given examples. If you read those and decide person x is better off than you, fair enough. If you decide there is a rift, again your choice.

I know that people on here working in state schools get a pension and I don't working in a private school. Is there a rift between me and the majority of people here? Not in my mind. There are differences in our pay, conditions etc, but no rift. The same as there are no rifts here between men and women, old and young, various ethnic backgrounds.
Sure there might be heated discussions at times, but it's hardly a rift. If I suddenly thought "I can't stand @localzuk (sorry using you as an example!) because he works in state education and gets a pension and doesn't have to pay what i do" then it is my choice for the rift. If the government said "@localzuk gets more than you", again, I can either say "yes he does" and carry on, or say "yeah, i hate him for that" and a rift is created.

Sometimes we need to step up and take responsibility for our own feelings, actions and thoughts

[penfold]

I would think that most people on here are intelligent and the very nature of our job encourages us to think of both sides in a logical pragmatic manner. This means that we can think and evaluate most problems from different angles to come to a solution which is appropriate. I can pretty much gaurentee that whatever happens no one on here will hold @localzuk(sorry but carrying on using you as an example )respsonsible for whatever happens. However, you cannot say that it is soley down to me as an individual to decide if a rift will occur. You cannot say that there is no influence from the government or the media into how people should think. If I went out into the streets telling people that we should accept the changes to pensions not many would listen. If the newspapers say it you know people will listen and take it as accurate whether they are right or not.

The very scale of the problems faced and changes proposed will create rifts as people feel they will be hard done by. Unfortunately there are still lots of people who only ever think "what should I get?" For me personally I fell it is not a case of "what should I get" but "what is fair?".