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General Chat Thread, Unison and other Unions Strike 30/11/2011 in General; ...
  1. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    I'm on less than that, and as previously mentioned am about £800/1000 better off than my old boss who was classed as senior tech not NM at (what is still considered) a failing state school.

    My point is, say, just for arguments sake, you pay in £50 pension a month, school pays in £30. You now have to pay in £60 and the school pays in £30. To match that, I have to pay in £90 a month with no contributions anywhere else, who gets the better deal here? I'm not saying it's a good/bad deal for LGPS but things should be taken into perspective.

    Also, we have a price freeze on wage increase the same as state schools, so it's not like if I had to pay in £90 my wage increase covers it, I'm on the same wages now as I was when I started 3 years ago due to the freeze, so I'm not exactly eating from the golden egg of private sector am I
    So you're on less than £29k?
    I would guess that almost everybody on here is on vastly less than that! How about £16k? So, in answer to your question, I would estimate that I am worse off!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    I'm on less than that, and as previously mentioned am about £800/1000 better off than my old boss who was classed as senior tech not NM at (what is still considered) a failing state school.

    My point is, say, just for arguments sake, you pay in £50 pension a month, school pays in £30. You now have to pay in £60 and the school pays in £30. To match that, I have to pay in £90 a month with no contributions anywhere else, who gets the better deal here? I'm not saying it's a good/bad deal for LGPS but things should be taken into perspective.

    Also, we have a price freeze on wage increase the same as state schools, so it's not like if I had to pay in £90 my wage increase covers it, I'm on the same wages now as I was when I started 3 years ago due to the freeze, so I'm not exactly eating from the golden egg of private sector am I
    Don't forget though, that you can choose wheither to pay in that £90, or £60 or £30 into a pension scheme.
    And then when you retire, you can still apply for state pension plus all the other trimmings of benefits available, whatever they may be by the time you or I reach retirement.
    The point of the GPS is a boosted-state pension, it does not sit on top of it.

    Those who work in the public sector, are doing a public service.... If we all didn't do this, then we wouldn't have public services, which all of us, Private or public alike make use of. The GPS is a reward for that public service, and rewards those mostly who stay in it for the longest time.

    It sounds to me MK2 that you have not had a good time in your private school recently in regards to remuneration. I can only surmise that pupil numbers have stayed the same or dropped over time, which suggests that competition from other schools in the area are a likely cause.

    This is the same as a private company getting priced out of the market. Anyone who works for such a business knows the risks going in, and knows that the longevity of the position and remuneration depends on the companies ability as a whole to maintain or improve standards, in the hope of getting a better bottom line.

    To not consider these things is not the fault of any union, government or other group, it is the responsibility of the person who accepts the contract.

    Employment is a gamble. You can take the high-route, with no guarantee as to how long the high-life might last, or you can take the slow and steady but dependable route. Both could end up in the same place, but one is more likely to end up there than the other. Where "There" is, is all subject to your own aspirations!

  3. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickev View Post
    So you're on less than £29k?
    I would guess that almost everybody on here is on vastly less than that! How about £16k? So, in answer to your question, I would estimate that I am worse off!!!
    I was going by @nephilim stating that Avg NM roles in public sector in his area were 29k.

    My point still stands, if we were both on £16k, you pay £50 pension and get £30 employer contribution, I pay £50 and get no contribution, who is worse off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    I was going by @nephilim stating that Avg NM roles in public sector in his area were 29k.

    My point still stands, if we were both on £16k, you pay £50 pension and get £30 employer contribution, I pay £50 and get no contribution, who is worse off?
    That was your choice though.

    You knew what they were going in. Also to note, if your school suddenly takes in 50% more children, then chances are your salary will go up with it; since your doing so well.

    My school has increased by 15% in 2 years, with another 10% planned each year for the next 5 years. I guarantee you, that no matter how big this school gets, my salary will not go up as a result of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    <snip>

    1st Line support roles in Luton, Cambridge, St Albans, London, Oxford, Banbury, Hemel Hempstead, Kettering etc - all paying around the £18k mark (+£2k for London)
    2nd Line support roles in Luton, Cambridge, St Albans, London, Oxford, Banbury, Hemel Hempstead, Kettering etc - all paying around the £27k mark (+£5k for London)
    3rd Line support roles in Luton, Cambridge, St Albans, London, Oxford, Banbury, Hemel Hempstead, Kettering etc - all paying around the £42k mark (+£8k for London)
    Management roles in Luton, Cambridge, St Albans, London, Oxford, Banbury, Hemel Hempstead, Kettering etc - all paying around the £50k mark (+£10k for London)

    <cut>

    People who tell me private sector gets less than education, take a long hard look at the education finances!
    I didn't even bother putting my two pen'orth in here.....I've worked in both sectors since 1970 and I KNOW categorically that this is the lowest paid job I've ever had. My job-title is ICT Technician, and my colleague's is Senior etc. He does what I would call a Network Manager's job, and I do a 3rd-line Desktop/Server/Application Support Engineer job, with Field Hardware Engineer thrown in.

    Strikes me that the LEA, school and Govt want an awful lot for their money, whilst all the while telling us we should be grateful for what we have.

    We've both had veiled threats of 'outsourcing' and 'redundancy' during our LM meetings with the HT. So much so, that I've made up my mind, the next time it gets mentioned, I'm going to say, 'Yes, that's probably your best option, you owe it to the school/students/governing body to investigate this', then sit back and wait for the look of '<shockhorror>Oh $h1t, My Bluff has been Called' to settle on her face.

  6. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    I was going by @nephilim stating that Avg NM roles in public sector in his area were 29k.

    My point still stands, if we were both on £16k, you pay £50 pension and get £30 employer contribution, I pay £50 and get no contribution, who is worse off?
    But we're not!!! - Your reluctance to quote a figure suggests that your basic pay is considerably higher, so why should I not get the funded pension I signed up to?

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    I think you are missing the point @Nickev.

    the key wording was IF

    If you were both on the same wage, and you had the employer contributions and he did not, you would be better off thank he was as he would have to make up the rest of the money himself and lose out on a bit more money whereas it would be covered by your employer.

  8. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rydra View Post
    Those who work in the public sector, are doing a public service.... If we all didn't do this, then we wouldn't have public services, which all of us, Private or public alike make use of. The GPS is a reward for that public service, and rewards those mostly who stay in it for the longest time.
    To be pedantic, I work in a school, you work in a school, we both work towards a common goal of educating children.
    It sounds to me MK2 that you have not had a good time in your private school recently in regards to remuneration. I can only surmise that pupil numbers have stayed the same or dropped over time, which suggests that competition from other schools in the area are a likely cause.
    Actually no, we are still doing OK here, we are still the most popular and highest achieving school in Derbyshire, but we have taken precautions based on economic climate, hence the pay freeze and other measures. If we didn't and carried on spending away happily then yes we'd be in trouble.

    Employment is a gamble. You can take the high-route, with no guarantee as to how long the high-life might last, or you can take the slow and steady but dependable route. Both could end up in the same place, but one is more likely to end up there than the other. Where "There" is, is all subject to your own aspirations!
    Judging by the bad finance management and amount of redundancies per year my last place had, i don't think classing public sector as "dependable" is fair. I don't think there is anything like a dependable job anywhere at all really, public, private or otherwise. All have chances of redundancy and risk.

    The only thing I was trying to make a point of was that certain comments about private sector being some valhalla where people go to live like gods and retire to barbados is a bit far fetched. I've worked in both, and to be honest public and private can shaft you in certain ways. you may have extra GPS contributions, but will still get a pension regardless.

    It's the sort of "there is always someone worse off than you" argument. Things may look bleak, but there are others losing their jobs who will struggle just to live to see pensionable age, it is perspective of the situation not only for the individual but the whole

  9. Thanks to MK-2 from:

    Rydra (8th November 2011)

  10. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickev View Post
    But we're not!!! - Your reluctance to quote a figure suggests that your basic pay is considerably higher, so why should I not get the funded pension I signed up to?
    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    I think you are missing the point @Nickev.

    the key wording was IF

    If you were both on the same wage, and you had the employer contributions and he did not, you would be better off thank he was as he would have to make up the rest of the money himself and lose out on a bit more money whereas it would be covered by your employer.
    Precisely, but to save nitpicking I'll bite as this could drag on

    I am on £24k as Network Manager. My old boss at the state school I left was on about £23,500ish (some people don't like to state exact wages) as Senior Tech. So not much difference there.
    Now saying both he and I paid in to a pension scheme, he would pay x amount and the school would pay Y amount. I would pay X + Y amount myself just to match it. That is my point.

    OK so I am not on 16k, but what about any private sector techs on 16k who don't get a pension scheme, the point is STILL valid for them. Forget me, forget you, just take two random people both on 16k, that is what I'm saying!
    Last edited by MK-2; 8th November 2011 at 03:50 PM.

  11. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    I think you are missing the point @Nickev.

    the key wording was IF

    If you were both on the same wage, and you had the employer contributions and he did not, you would be better off thank he was as he would have to make up the rest of the money himself and lose out on a bit more money whereas it would be covered by your employer.
    Thanks nephilim, but I am not missing the point! The point is that I know of nowhere in the private sector where that salary applies, so the analagy is invalid!!!

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    fine, make the salary range higher, then it applies....oh and a private school I worked at, junior tech was on 16k

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    Precisely, but to save nitpicking I'll bite as this could drag on

    I am on £24k as Network Manager. My old boss at the state school I left was on about £23,500ish (some people don't like to state exact wages) as Senior Tech. So not much difference there.
    Now saying both he and I paid in to a pension scheme, he would pay x amount and the school would pay Y amount. I would pay X + Y amount myself just to match it. That is
    my point.

    OK so I am not on 16k, but what about any private sector techs on 16k who don't get a pension scheme, the point is STILL valid for them. Forget me, forget you, just take two random people both on 16k, that is what I'm saying!
    Thanks MK2 - I agree that in your specific case, you are worse off - but can't you also see that my much lower salary is supposedly jusified to an extent by the pension that I signed up to?

  14. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    fine, make the salary range higher, then it applies....oh and a private school I worked at, junior tech was on 16k
    I am a senior tech, so that proves my point!

  15. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickev View Post
    Thanks MK2 - I agree that in your specific case, you are worse off - but can't you also see that my much lower salary is supposedly jusified to an extent by the pension that I signed up to?
    I can see that yes, I do understand (I started on about 14k at my last place I mentioned). The point I was trying to get at was that a private sector (not just private school, anywhere private, even say a call centre) employee on 16k will not get employer contribution, so although you and he are on the same wage he will have a little extra to pay just to match the amount going into your pension. Yes, I agree it sucks that the amount you pay in may go up but the employer will still be adding to it, regardless. Person X won't have anyone else adding to it.
    But yes, I do see your point and completely understand what you mean

  16. #225

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    ...unless of course you're suggesting that a junior tech should receive the same as a senior tech?

    Thanks for the discussion guys, but I need to go and sort out the theatre for an event this evening

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