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General Chat Thread, Benefit Culture in General; Originally Posted by localzuk No, my point from earlier still stands! You think it does, but it doesn't. The decision ...
  1. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No, my point from earlier still stands!
    You think it does, but it doesn't. The decision of a farmer to grow crops or rear livestock depends upon the land he's on, first and foremost. Beyond a certain slope angle, you can't grow crops, because you can't get the machinery to go up and down it. Even if the tractor will, the plough won't create even furrows. If the pH is wrong, you need to alter the pH, which means chemicals and a tractor and spraying. If the rainfall is too heavy, crops won't grow. Why do you think that Ireland ate rye bread for centuries? Too wet for wheat.

    You said you 'know' farmers. Why don't you know this? I don't farm and I know this.

    They can farm just fine, on the farm they're used to, in the country they're used to. Why don't you understand this? Take a British farmer, someone who has only farmed on British soil, and plonk them in Afghanistan, and tell them to set up a farm there. They wouldn't have a clue. How about if you got a farmer from the paddy fields in China and got him to come over here and farm rapeseed? Not a chance. Which is what I said about your argument like being about an IT person knowing everything about IT simply because he knows his own segment of the market.
    If those farming techniques are so vastly different, then how is applying a top-down solution dreamed up by a researcher going to help? What will work for one won't work for another.

  2. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Which is what I said about your argument like being about an IT person knowing everything about IT simply because he knows his own segment of the market.
    My only argument there is....a person can research each area of IT and even interview people in each of those areas, but it does not make that person an expert in any of those fields, only have an understanding of each of those areas better.
    Would you trust someone who came into your school and said "I've never actually worked in IT but I've researched it for a while, and you need to ditch all computers and buy all tablets, because that will be a solution to many problems?" Chances are, no matter how small on the global scale, your experience will bring up issues that the "expert" doesn't know of. It would be a similar thing if said expert interviewed 100 schools and all techs at those 100 said they would use an iPad for a smartboard machine. Great, but if the other 400 schools nearby wouldn't then just talking to those 100 means the results are skewed.

  3. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatpackhamster View Post
    You think it does, but it doesn't. The decision of a farmer to grow crops or rear livestock depends upon the land he's on, first and foremost. Beyond a certain slope angle, you can't grow crops, because you can't get the machinery to go up and down it. Even if the tractor will, the plough won't create even furrows. If the pH is wrong, you need to alter the pH, which means chemicals and a tractor and spraying. If the rainfall is too heavy, crops won't grow. Why do you think that Ireland ate rye bread for centuries? Too wet for wheat.

    You said you 'know' farmers. Why don't you know this? I don't farm and I know this.
    I have at no point denied this... You seem to have got an idea from somewhere that I am saying that all land everywhere can be used to grow everything. I have not said that. I have said that 70% of the world's farm land is used for animals. I have also said that saying that that land ALL can't be used for crops is preposterous. Sure, there will be a percentage that can't grow various crops, but there are crops being grown in the most desolate of places, by choosing them carefully.

    If those farming techniques are so vastly different, then how is applying a top-down solution dreamed up by a researcher going to help? What will work for one won't work for another.
    Oh dear god, now you're just being deliberately annoying. Did I say researchers would demand a top down solution where everywhere had the same system!? No. You just made that up.

  4. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    My only argument there is....a person can research each area of IT and even interview people in each of those areas, but it does not make that person an expert in any of those fields, only have an understanding of each of those areas better.
    Would you trust someone who came into your school and said "I've never actually worked in IT but I've researched it for a while, and you need to ditch all computers and buy all tablets, because that will be a solution to many problems?" Chances are, no matter how small on the global scale, your experience will bring up issues that the "expert" doesn't know of. It would be a similar thing if said expert interviewed 100 schools and all techs at those 100 said they would use an iPad for a smartboard machine. Great, but if the other 400 schools nearby wouldn't then just talking to those 100 means the results are skewed.
    You're talking about something completely different. A PhD doesn't come to a single line conclusion. They produce books full of information, detailed experiments, detailed conclusions, examples etc... Don't confuse people who claim to be experts on a subject because they read a couple of books, with people who actually follow the scientific method and actually do produce useable outcomes.

  5. #110

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    @Dos_Box @ZeroHour @Domino @john @Ric_ or any other mod...can the topic please be split between the farming posts and the original topic please?

  6. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    @Dos_Box @ZeroHour @Domino @john @Ric_ or any other mod...can the topic please be split between the farming posts and the original topic please?
    Yes please!

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    You know what, in all honesty, I can't be bothered. These arguments get very playground-ish because neither side will even accept a single point of another side.
    You two may as well just have a quick fight, then we can close this thread

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  9. #113
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    I wish I had as much time as these guys while at work.

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  11. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    You know what, in all honesty, I can't be bothered. These arguments get very playground-ish because neither side will even accept a single point of another side.
    You two may as well just have a quick fight, then we can close this thread
    I've as yet to see an argument against what I've said - I've seen a lot of misunderstanding of what I've said though such as:

    1. I never said farmers know nothing, I said that they should not be the source of all knowledge on farming, scientists and researchers are a more suitable place (eg. published papers based on a plethora of sources).
    2. I never said all land can grow crops, I said to say that all grazing land couldn't grow crops would be preposterous.
    3. I never said there is a one size fits all solution to every piece of land and every crop in the world.
    4. I didn't say that farming could happen using the current used methods everywhere in the world (eg. the mentions of slope etc, precluding current machinery from getting to it).

    The problem from my point of view is that I've had these same arguments trotted out so many times by people that it screams that people are just unwilling to think around a problem, instead focusing on current farming methods on current land with current crops by current farmers. If we spend our entire time focusing on those things, we'll never get anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBloggs View Post
    I wish I had as much time as these guys while at work.
    Packaging software takes a while!

  12. Thanks to localzuk from:

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  13. #115

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    I could always beat them up but that would get us nowhere and they would be in a mangled mess of broken bones and agony...All in all this topic has gone very badly off topic and @RingOfFlame was right, normally she is the one to derail threads but you guys derailed it so much that it needs to be split off!

  14. #116

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    I think the problem is some people only ever see their point of view and let's be honest, no-one here has the right answer. If they did they wouldn't on here, they would instead be sorting it as we speak in the House of Commons......always best to see it from both sides like GrumbleDook and his fence sitting. I was always taught that unless you can see it from both sides, you will never find a suitable solution and instead merely argue your point until you are blue in the face while speaking over people and hushing their views and opinions!

    Oh well, on and on and on and on, the world it just keeps spinning!


    Chris
    Last edited by CPLTD; 3rd November 2011 at 03:20 PM.

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  16. #117

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    117 posts so I invoke Godwin's Law!!!!!

    You're all wrong and I'm right!!!

  17. #118


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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveT View Post
    <snippuh>
    You're all wrong and I'm right!!!
    Godwin's Law having been invoked, I'm now duty-bound to say, 'That's a bit Fascist, innit?'.

    And then, to get my coat.

  18. #119

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthling View Post
    Godwin's Law having been invoked, I'm now duty-bound to say, 'That's a bit Fascist, innit?'.

    And then, to get my coat.
    Something generic about nazis in response! Throw in a reference to Hitler too.

  19. #120

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    Hmmm, reckons it's time someone got off their high horse:

    Benefit Culture-get-off-your-high-horse.jpg

  20. 2 Thanks to Hightower:

    CPLTD (3rd November 2011), nephilim (3rd November 2011)

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