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General Chat Thread, Steve Jobs : Visionary or not? in General; Originally Posted by LosOjos Exactly the point I think - if Xerox hadn't marketed the mouse and Steve Jobs hadn't ...
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    mthomas08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    Exactly the point I think - if Xerox hadn't marketed the mouse and Steve Jobs hadn't seen it and implemented it in the Apple II, would anyone have done? We'll never know the answer, they probably would, but it could have been many years later, which could have meant a huge setback for the development of ICT.

    Nobody knows what would have happened, but the fact is Steve Jobs did implement it, it was a success and it did change the game.
    I would totally agree with you there, just saw some one else quote on BBC about Steve Jobs "knowing what made sense in a product". that is understandable, many people are being annoyed at the fact that he is being made in to a religious icon. Let's face it - Apple will continue and do what it has always done the people behind it now probably think along the same lengths as Steve Jobs.

    @witch, your right, a man who really knew his stuff, could spot good ideas has died far too young.

  2. #62

    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    To me a visionary is someone who has a vision to change peoples lives for the better, in my opinion Martin Luther King Jr was a visionary, Gandhi was a visionary, but if you think having a mobile phone that has bells and whistles is in the same league as people that genuinely improve the life of nations with there ideals then i think that's pretty warped.
    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    No because that wasn't his vision for the future
    Arguably his vision for the future was to improve people's lives by enabling greater communication (which in itself is a very democratic principle). It would have been rather arrogant of him to proclaim that he created Facebook to spread democracy, but his vision was greater social connectivity, and that level of connection and communication is what enabled the organisation necessary for the revolutions.

    Or perhaps Julian Assange? He has taken the Wiki model and used it to try and support democracy and free speech. The only thing stopping him from being a visionary would be his apparent lack of direct success so far.

    (note: I am entirely playing devil's advocate here, because there's no way Zuckerberg is a visionary)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    I'm not claiming they did invent it! This is the point I'm trying to make!

    I am very much anti-Apple and hate the claims that are made by those that simply don't know any better that Apple did invent these technologies!

    Where Steve Jobs vision came in to play was to repeatedly choose the right tech to pour money and marketing in to in order to make it a success.

    Techies are almost always bad salesmen; either we're too "black and white"/logical or too easily admit the shortcomings of technology.

    Steve Jobs was a visionary business man, NOT an inventor!


    We can all argue until the cows come home that somebody else could have done exactly the same but they didn't, Apple did.
    What it boils down to is the interpretation of the word "visionary", which i can respect

    In not trying to take anything away from his as an outstanding marketer.

    I think these days, as witch said earlier. words tend to be over/misused and loose / change meaning and magnitude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofsanta View Post
    Arguably his vision for the future was to improve people's lives by enabling greater communication (which in itself is a very democratic principle). It would have been rather arrogant of him to proclaim that he created Facebook to spread democracy, but his vision was greater social connectivity, and that level of connection and communication is what enabled the organisation necessary for the revolutions.

    Or perhaps Julian Assange? He has taken the Wiki model and used it to try and support democracy and free speech. The only thing stopping him from being a visionary would be his apparent lack of direct success so far.

    (note: I am entirely playing devil's advocate here, because there's no way Zuckerberg is a visionary)
    Sorry for double post.

    I could somewhat see Julian Assange to be classified as a visionary in my view of the word, I meant to name drop him in my original post but must have got sidetracked.

    The differences being Assange has a view of how information should be free and speech should be unrestricted and acts on that, where as Zuckerberg's main vision imho was to make money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    But the problem with dictionaries is some words have more then one interpretation, you quoted number 7 but i highly doubt he would come under number 8 or 9...

    vi·sion·ar·y   [vizh-uh-ner-ee]

    7.
    a person of unusually keen foresight.
    8.
    a person who sees visions.
    9.
    a person who is given to audacious, highly speculative, or impractical ideas or schemes; dreamer.
    Sure, words can have more than one meaning (good for argument!) but to call Jobs a visionary he only needs to tick one of the boxes, not all of them.

    My view of Jobs was that he acted as a Product Manager. He did have significant creative input into the products but he wasn't cutting code, wielding a soldering iron or spending time using solidworks to do the actual slick design of the later products. The products bought together things that were already around and packaged them up to meet an emerging demand. The packaging was usually very good and even to do that to meet emerging demands takes foresight - vision if you will.

    Just take iTunes. It's now taking more money from music sales than all the record companies put together. The record companies sat around scratching their bums wondering how they could stop technology from ruining their business. Jobs actually made online commercial sales of music work an pocketed huge great wodges of cash in doing so. Almost everything that enabled that had been around for a while - but he was the one that actually took all the parts and put them together into a package that people wanted to use (and were willing to spend their hard earned cash on and through). If that was his only success it would have been quite a remarkable one, but that's just one of many. I think you would have to have very little insight to not say Jobs had remarkable foresight and he had the balls to put his money on that foresight being right. Not once, but time and time again.
    Last edited by pcstru; 7th October 2011 at 01:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    So Hightower you don't think Jobs changed the future for the better, by pushing forward with the Apple II? Or for pushing forward with the GUI Mac OS, or the mouse? Don't focus on his new stuff alone, look at his entire life and career.

    His work and vision shaped the computer industry as it exists today.
    I'd sooner call all the boys and girls of the armed forces visionary for what they have done to help the future of other countries than call Jobs it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Xerox had no plans to market their mouse. They had no plans to market the Alto. They were not visionary by leaving their stuff in the lab. Apple took their idea, and turned it into a commercial success, changing the entire way computers were used by consumers.

    If I invent a gadget that allows me to teleport around the world, and then stick it in a cupboard, i'm not a visionary. If someone comes along and sees that technology and turns it into something that changes the world, then they are a visionary.
    Yea, the arm of Xerox that it was developed under was the labs section, an arm thats aim was to come up with cool stuff that would benifit the world. Certain bits of this were picked out and used by the parent company, other bits were sold off and the rest was offered around in education establishments or sometimes filed away. Very few companies now have such a departments, Apple was never one of them.

    If you saw and understood that much of the universe and its fundimental building blocks to make such a device then you are a visionary. Putting it in a cupboard makes you a bit douche and difinatly silly or abscent minded but it does not make you any less visionary.

    If some guy come into your house and says I'll give you $20 for it then sells it for billions it makes him smart and savy at seeing the possibilities of something but no where near to the same extent as the true visionary. The main talent in play is exploitation of that technology to a profitable end, a far less noble pursuit still useful in its own way if a better alternative is not avalible but hardly a visionary in the clasic sence.
    Last edited by SYNACK; 7th October 2011 at 01:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Yea, the arm of Xerox that it was developed under was the labs section, an arm thats aim was to come up with cool stuff that would benifit the world. Certain bits of this were picked out and used by the parent company, other bits were sold off and the rest was offered around in education establishments or sometimes filed away. Very few companies now have such a departments, Apple was never one of them.
    The Alto, which the mouse was developed for, along with their GUI was produced and used only for a short time and within Xerox and a few educational places. They didn't take the mouse and develop it into anything. They just left it as a research project. That is not visionary.

    If you saw and understood that much of the universe and its fundimental building blocks to make such a device then you are a visionary. Putting it in a cupboard makes you a bit douche and difinatly silly or abscent minded but it does not make you any less visionary.
    Ah, but that's the thing, a visionary is someone who does something with their ideas to change the world. Not just stick it in a box. So, it would make them a non-visionary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    The Alto, which the mouse was developed for, along with their GUI was produced and used only for a short time and within Xerox and a few educational places. They didn't take the mouse and develop it into anything. They just left it as a research project. That is not visionary.
    And in that way they let it out by allowing others to use it and see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Ah, but that's the thing, a visionary is someone who does something with their ideas to change the world. Not just stick it in a box. So, it would make them a non-visionary.
    They did do something with the idea, they built it and showed it to people. Thinking it up in itself takes great vision whether they share it / market it as much as you'd like is not the measure. In the same veign how much of Apple un-implemented research has ever leaked out with the blessing of the company in order to help push things foward. How many new ideas may have been 'lost' because of the one way shareing. Is that not 'non-visionary' by your own assessment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightower View Post
    I'd sooner call all the boys and girls of the armed forces visionary for what they have done to help the future of other countries than call Jobs it.
    Being visionary is not coming out of a finite pot though ... sometimes it is difficult to even try to compare different people / groups who could be seen as visionary so is it really worth trying to go down that route?

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    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightower View Post
    I'd sooner call all the boys and girls of the armed forces visionary for what they have done to help the future of other countries than call Jobs it.
    In my opinion, that's a poor attempt at Daily Mail style arguing. Can't win an argument? Insert "our boys" "pedos" or "Diana"

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    MK-2's Avatar
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    From catching up on some of the posts here, it does appear that money is a contributing factor. Some saying he poured money into areas that he saw could be big in the future.
    So...does that mean wealth is the difference between an everyday joe and someone like Jobs being visionary? What if you saw that product X was failing but if tweaked in such a way could be amazing. You have no money so can't do anything. I have millions, I see the same thing and pump millions in, I'm a visionary for changing it.

    Using money again, it could be argued how much would Jobs have contributed to this revolution of the IT system if money wasn't involved? He was a businessman, bottom line was what came first. if the company didn't make money that was it. i doubt the tech for the iphone/pad/etc would have been released if apple didn't think it would be profitable (same goes for the earlier tech....money was still key factor).

    And yes i know this could go for many, i'm not using it as an example to exclude Jobs but include others, I'm using it just as an example in its own right

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    I'd say it isn't money specifically, its scale. Someone can be a visionary on any scale. As GrumbleDook said, Dos_Box is a visionary for his ideas for this site. Someone within a small company could be a visionary within that company, but someone like Jobs was a visionary on a global scale. He changed the future via his decisions and his drive for hundreds of millions, if not billions of people worldwide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I'd say it isn't money specifically, its scale. Someone can be a visionary on any scale. As GrumbleDook said, Dos_Box is a visionary for his ideas for this site. Someone within a small company could be a visionary within that company, but someone like Jobs was a visionary on a global scale. He changed the future via his decisions and his drive for hundreds of millions, if not billions of people worldwide.
    By that view the terrorists that took down the towers were visionarys, they saw weknesses in security and they have changed things for millions too.

    Not meaning to compare the people or the actions, just the definition applied to them, words are clumbsy instruments being made clumbsyer every day. Language entropy if you will, in 100 years words will mean absoloutly nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    By that view the terrorists that took down the towers were visionarys, they saw weknesses in security and they have changed things for millions too.

    Not meaning to compare the people, just the definition applied to them, words are clumbsy instruments being made clumbsyer every day. Language entropy if you will, in 100 years words will mean absoloutly nothing.
    Especially if they're spelt incorrectly

    [before you retaliate, I'm a self confessed member of the EduGeek Pedants!]

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