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General Chat Thread, Steve Jobs : Visionary or not? in General; Originally Posted by LiamH I'm thankful for him taking existing products, marketing them well, and pushing other company's to make ...
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    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    I'm thankful for him taking existing products, marketing them well, and pushing other company's to make cheaper and better visions of them.
    Exactly the point I think - if Xerox hadn't marketed the mouse and Steve Jobs hadn't seen it and implemented it in the Apple II, would anyone have done? We'll never know the answer, they probably would, but it could have been many years later, which could have meant a huge setback for the development of ICT.

    Nobody knows what would have happened, but the fact is Steve Jobs did implement it, it was a success and it did change the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    Exactly the point I think - if Xerox hadn't marketed the mouse and Steve Jobs hadn't seen it and implemented it in the Apple II, would anyone have done? We'll never know the answer, they probably would, but it could have been many years later, which could have meant a huge setback for the development of ICT.

    Nobody knows what would have happened, but the fact is Steve Jobs did implement it, it was a success and it did change the game.
    He did, it was and it did. He had vision, and skill and marketing ability in spades...but a 'visionary'? Not in the world changing sense of the word, no. He did change some things and improve others, but a visionary is much much more than this. It is just hyperbole - as is the overhyped use of the word 'tragic'. Real tragedy is something far far greater than the sad, too-early death of a clever and innovative man.
    Also, whilst we can be saddened by the death of someone we never met, we cannot really get emotional. All this ridiculous 'Princess Diana' stuff is weird, IMHO

  3. 5 Thanks to witch:

    Hightower (7th October 2011), LiamH (7th October 2011), nit (8th October 2011), RabbieBurns (7th October 2011), SYNACK (7th October 2011)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    To be fair:
    Sinclair and commodores were mass produced for home use before the apple 2
    Say what?

    Apple II - 1977
    Comodore PET - 1977

    Sinclair ZX80 - 1980
    IBM PC - 1981
    Comodore C64 - 1982
    MSDOS - 1982
    Apple Mac - 1984

    And just to correct something else - the Apple II didn't have a mouse (it didn't have a GUI) - that came later on the Mackintosh (1984).
    Last edited by pcstru; 7th October 2011 at 12:36 PM.

  5. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Your mixing it up a little I think, the visionary was the guy at Xerox that made it and showed it working in a basic GUI. Apple implemented it. Apple Mouse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Sure it was a good bet, and also being in the right place at the right time to see it for the step it was.
    The guy at Xerox was a genius for having he idea and making it work in the first place ... in the same way Woz is a genius ... but to get it out there and used by everyone ... that takes some vision and drive. That is the big difference to me ... but that is linked to how I see a difference between genius and visionaries. I know not everyone takes the same point of view.

    I could put it into context closer to home ... I'm a genius ... Dos_box is a visionary. I know my place

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    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    He did, it was and it did. He had vision, and skill and marketing ability in spades...but a 'visionary'? Not in the world changing sense of the word, no.
    I believe that the mouse and GUI did change the world though, in a massive way. I also believe we have his business sense and marketing skills to thank for their success - it would have been easier to say "Oh, it'll never take off".

    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    He did change some things and improve others, but a visionary is much much more than this.
    Depends on your definition - by the dictionary definition he fits exactly, but if you're going to put emotional weight behind it based on the achievements of others then that changes things.

    There will always be someone better, always someone worse; can't we judge someone on their own merits?

    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    Real tragedy is something far far greater than the sad, too-early death of a clever and innovative man.
    Also, whilst we can be saddened by the death of someone we never met, we cannot really get emotional. All this ridiculous 'Princess Diana' stuff is weird, IMHO
    That I completely agree with, but again that's just the way the media works. If they didn't use grand, emotional words like "tragic" and "visionary", then the news would all be a bit dull wouldn't it?

    "Steve Jobs dies age 56. It's sad."

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    Visionary : (noun) a person of unusually keen foresight.

    Jobs was the driver behind not one, but many successful products. I'd say success in a world market demands foresight, and that so much success is unusual (almost by definition it is highly unusual). So "unsually keen foresight" - methinks box ticked.

  8. Thanks to pcstru from:

    localzuk (7th October 2011)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    Say what?

    Apple II - 1977
    Comodore PET - 1977

    Sinclair ZX80 - 1980
    IBM PC - 1981
    Comodore C64 - 1982
    MSDOS - 1982
    Apple Mac - 1984

    And just to correct something else - the Apple II didn't have a mouse (it didn't have a GUI) - that came later on the Mackintosh (1984).
    Might have been off with the sinclair, but afaik the commodore was out before the apple 2.

    To me a visionary is someone who has a vision to change peoples lives for the better, in my opinion Martin Luther King Jr was a visionary, Gandhi was a visionary, but if you think having a mobile phone that has bells and whistles is in the same league as people that genuinely improve the life of nations with there ideals then i think that's pretty warped.

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    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    Might have been off with the sinclair, but afaik the commodore was out before the apple 2.

    To me a visionary is someone who has a vision to change peoples lives for the better, in my opinion Martin Luther King Jr was a visionary, Gandhi was a visionary, but if you think having a mobile phone that has bells and whistles is in the same league as people that genuinely improve the life of nations with there ideals then i think that's pretty warped.
    So is Mark Zuckerberg a visionary? After all, Facebook was a key driver in the Arab Spring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    Might have been off with the sinclair, but afaik the commodore was out before the apple 2.
    The PET beat the apple II to market by a few months. However, the apple II was a far far superior machine.
    To me a visionary is someone who has a vision to change peoples lives for the better, in my opinion Martin Luther King Jr was a visionary, Gandhi was a visionary, but if you think having a mobile phone that has bells and whistles is in the same league as people that genuinely improve the life of nations with there ideals then i think that's pretty warped.
    Could be, but while having your own idea of what a word means might be good for an argument, dictionaries can be massively helpful in establishing a common definition of what a word actually means - and common definitions while no fun in an argument are very useful in productive communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofsanta View Post
    So is Mark Zuckerberg a visionary? After all, Facebook was a key driver in the Arab Spring.
    No because that wasn't his vision for the future

    That's like calling George Washington a mass murderer because he helped set up the Springfield firearms company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    Say what?

    Apple II - 1977
    Comodore PET - 1977

    Sinclair ZX80 - 1980
    IBM PC - 1981
    Comodore C64 - 1982
    MSDOS - 1982
    Apple Mac - 1984

    And just to correct something else - the Apple II didn't have a mouse (it didn't have a GUI) - that came later on the Mackintosh (1984).
    and the amiga a1000 which did have (at least as far as i remember) a gui and mouse (workbench 1.0) was released in 1985 so if the apple 2 had not appeared im not sure as far as os's go it would of made much odds and the atari st with TOS wasnt far bejind again with a gui

    good at people skills and getting the right guys arround him definately good at spin yes visionary no as said i dont think theres a single apple product that isnt a derivative of something else allbeit polished up

    or the acorn a500 in 1986ish (i still think riscos if had been developed was by far the easiest os ive eve used)
    Last edited by sted; 7th October 2011 at 01:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    The PET beat the apple II to market by a few months. However, the apple II was a far far superior machine.


    Could be, but while having your own idea of what a word means might be good for an argument, dictionaries can be massively helpful in establishing a common definition of what a word actually means - and common definitions while no fun in an argument are very useful in productive communication.
    But the problem with dictionaries is some words have more then one interpretation, you quoted number 7 but i highly doubt he would come under number 8 or 9...

    vi·sion·ar·y   [vizh-uh-ner-ee]

    7.
    a person of unusually keen foresight.
    8.
    a person who sees visions.
    9.
    a person who is given to audacious, highly speculative, or impractical ideas or schemes; dreamer.

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    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    if you think having a mobile phone that has bells and whistles is in the same league as people that genuinely improve the life of nations with there ideals then i think that's pretty warped.
    Forget about the iPhone/iPod/iPad.

    Tell me that the world would be exactly the same as it is now if we didn't have computers with a mouse and GUI. Without resorting to "we managed just fine without them". We managed "just fine" without electricity but would you go back to that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    Forget about the iPhone/iPod/iPad.

    Tell me that the world would be exactly the same as it is now if we didn't have computers with a mouse and GUI. Without resorting to "we managed just fine without them". We managed "just fine" without electricity but would you go back to that?
    But that's the point. Apple did not invent the mouse, or the GUI

    Sure they might have mass marketed it, but that doesn't mean the pharmacological company's that mass produce and market insulin are "visionary"

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    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    But that's the point. Apple did not invent the mouse, or the GUI

    Sure they might have mass marketed it, but that doesn't mean the pharmacological company's that mass produce and market insulin are "visionary"
    I'm not claiming they did invent it! This is the point I'm trying to make!

    I am very much anti-Apple and hate the claims that are made by those that simply don't know any better that Apple did invent these technologies!

    Where Steve Jobs vision came in to play was to repeatedly choose the right tech to pour money and marketing in to in order to make it a success.

    Techies are almost always bad salesmen; either we're too "black and white"/logical or too easily admit the shortcomings of technology.

    Steve Jobs was a visionary business man, NOT an inventor!


    We can all argue until the cows come home that somebody else could have done exactly the same but they didn't, Apple did.

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