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General Chat Thread, Steve Jobs : Visionary or not? in General; Originally Posted by MK-2 And feel free to question what I think a visionary is, I'm allowed to have a ...
  1. #31
    Disease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    And feel free to question what I think a visionary is, I'm allowed to have a different idea and viewpoint to others
    Not when apple is concerned by the looks of it, unless you proclaim Jobs to be the greatest visonary the world has ever seen and the second coming of Jesus Christ you are just dumb. I will tell you what is dumb, is the Princess Diana type out pouring for a man who was at the end of the day a businessman. And I doubt if Jobs was responsible for the marketing of the IPhone and IPad as someone said earlier, that would be down to the Apple Marketing Team.

    Jobs may have had a few ideas 20/30 years ago but as everyone knows when your company becomes global the only real decisons CEO's make is to where they are playing golf this afternoon.

    Anyone see all those idiots holding IPads with the candle app as a vigil, lol.

  2. #32
    mthomas08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    Steve Jobs helped build Pixar with vision, cash - NDTVGadgets.com

    $50 million of his own money to keep a company going in an industry that no-one else believed in, computer animated films.

    Now one of the biggest studios going. Seems fairly visionary.....
    After reading that it looks like all he did was inject cash in to an idea that already existed. Again not really his vision but throwing money in to something that was a good idea. If its classed as Visionary to throw money to someone elses idea I will accept that.
    I feel the right term is he is brilliant at spotting talent - perhaps the IT world of Simon Cowell? I guess he too is visionary.

  3. #33

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    I love the way people tend to focus on the more recent products that Apple have made and Jobs was part of getting out to the public.

    Let's go all the way back to the start.

    Would Woz have made the Apple II and would it have been the game changer it was? I don't think so, and from what I remember of Woz's biography, Woz said that Steve was the driver of thinking big and making it the success it was.

    When we think about the argument about the use of mice ... we all know that Steve was not the creator, or even the Apple engineer who went with him, but he was the drive ... he had the vision about how important it would be (and so we get into the argument about a one-button mouse and why it did or didn't work).

    We can talk about polishing excrement ... but the mouse was not excrement and he made sure it was well polished well.

    I'm looking forward to reading his biography (planned Xmas present so it will be some time) but from reading Woz's and Robert X Cringely's Accidental Empires I have to say yes, he was a visionary ... a tarnished one perhaps, but still with vision and drive.

  4. Thanks to GrumbleDook from:

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  5. #34

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    His vision was one of changing the world with game changing devices that were high quality and worked end to end. Look at most companies. Their goal is to shift boxes. HP/Compaq when they just did PC boxes? They just sold grey boxes. Acer? Same. Samsung? Same, but in many many industries.

    Steve Jobs set up Apple in a very different way, with a very clear goal - to produce systems that people would use and love to use. He succeeded in that.
    He was not doing it for free and was quite happy to reove others from their rightful places shareing the proceeds so I think that the altruistic view is a little - to use your words - childish. He was selling something different though, he was selling an experience rather than technology which is why they could get away with and even focus on locking people away from the the full potential of their devices rather than opening it up. Other tech companies are generally actually tech companies who's aim was the ability of the hardware sometimes without consideration to the rather large limitations of their userbase.

    Visionary, no. Not in the technological or actual development sence along the lines of real gae changing thinkers like Newton, Einstein etc. Possibly in the sence of the guy who made the first dictionary or a fashion designer.

    The large contention I have with the visionary tag is that it is diluting the word which is used to describe people who make real epic differences.

    It has been said about certain ideas that it is not a case of a person inventing them but a set of circumstances and ideas at the time leading to it happening. This is why certain breakthroughs in science happen simultaniously with several scientists working on them at once.

    All the components exist to create it, and someone will, its just a case of who gets there first or in tech, who gets it marketed first. This was the very foundation of Microsoft with Gates's smarmy little game with DOS and this holding of certain bits of a market with ideas and tech revised or plucked from engineers working with/for him. The industry is no longer about the best solution rather the most popular and this long term is more harful than helpful.

    Would tech be different without him? Yes.

    Would it not exist without him? Doubtful.


    As I said in the other thread, it is sad for him, his family and friends but casting him as the saviour of the universe is a bit much and is disrespectful in its own way.

  6. #35

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disease View Post
    Jobs may have had a few ideas 20/30 years ago but as everyone knows when your company becomes global the only real decisons CEO's make is to where they are playing golf this afternoon.
    Yeah, this line on its own proves you don't really know anything about Jobs and how he ran Apple. He was not just a figurehead. He was involved in decisions from the bottom to the top. There's even an example I read a couple of years ago where he was making decisions about what food was available in the canteens, as the food had an effect on the quality of work etc... He was well known for managing every tiny detail.

  7. #36

    MK-2's Avatar
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    The problem with using the word visionary, by its very definition, is that every CEO of every company could be classed as a visionary. They all look to the future with imagination and wisdom.
    We in our jobs look ahead in terms of ICT and how it could be used creatively and innovatively. So we are looking to the future with imagination and also with the wisdom our experiences have given us. Does that make everyone here a visionary in the same sense?

    What then separates one of us being a visionary from Steve Jobs? Scale? Celebrity? Wealth?

  8. #37

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    I suppose it comes down to one's own take on the word vision. I wouldn't try to deny that Jobs had vision to push forward and make a success of things, but I don't class this CEO of a tech company to be visionary. Yes, it might make lives easier, and on the other side it might get pied piper followers, but unless he's truly changing the world for the better, for the future, can he be classed as a true visionary? My opinion is no, even if it's purely based on the sole fact that the changes he's brought aren't for the better (for example, having people throw money away on an iPad they don't even know what to do with is one example, posted earlier in this thread).
    Last edited by Hightower; 7th October 2011 at 12:00 PM.

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  10. #38

    MK-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Yeah, this line on its own proves you don't really know anything about Jobs and how he ran Apple. He was not just a figurehead. He was involved in decisions from the bottom to the top. There's even an example I read a couple of years ago where he was making decisions about what food was available in the canteens, as the food had an effect on the quality of work etc... He was well known for managing every tiny detail.
    Apple was also known as not a very happy place to work under him, as the working environment was much like the OS; locked down so tightly and only certain things allowed.
    But that's besides the point of this discussion

  11. #39

    localzuk's Avatar
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    So Hightower you don't think Jobs changed the future for the better, by pushing forward with the Apple II? Or for pushing forward with the GUI Mac OS, or the mouse? Don't focus on his new stuff alone, look at his entire life and career.

    His work and vision shaped the computer industry as it exists today.

  12. #40

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    When we think about the argument about the use of mice ... we all know that Steve was not the creator, or even the Apple engineer who went with him, but he was the drive ... he had the vision about how important it would be (and so we get into the argument about a one-button mouse and why it did or didn't work).
    Your mixing it up a little I think, the visionary was the guy at Xerox that made it and showed it working in a basic GUI. Apple implemented it. Apple Mouse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Sure it was a good bet, and also being in the right place at the right time to see it for the step it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    We in our jobs look ahead in terms of ICT and how it could be used creatively and innovatively.
    I think that's a bold claim. There are millions and millions working in IT, and nowhere near enough have the business sense or the concept over technical details way of thinking that is critical. In fact, most of the people I've met in IT usually are just pushing for the next OS upgrade or whatnot just "because".

    Then again, I could have simply met a lot of IT techies and not enough IT Professionals.

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    aerospacemango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    Apple was also known as not a very happy place to work under him, as the working environment was much like the OS; locked down so tightly and only certain things allowed.
    But that's besides the point of this discussion
    But is it "besides the point"?

    Locked down so tightly and only certain things allowed
    That sounds remarkable similar to the Foxconn manufacturing plant.....

    Foxconn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Your mixing it up a little I think, the visionary was the guy at Xerox that made it and showed it working in a basic GUI. Apple implemented it. Apple Mouse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Sure it was a good bet, and also being in the right place at the right time to see it for the step it was.
    Xerox had no plans to market their mouse. They had no plans to market the Alto. They were not visionary by leaving their stuff in the lab. Apple took their idea, and turned it into a commercial success, changing the entire way computers were used by consumers.

    If I invent a gadget that allows me to teleport around the world, and then stick it in a cupboard, i'm not a visionary. If someone comes along and sees that technology and turns it into something that changes the world, then they are a visionary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerospacemango View Post
    But is it "besides the point"?



    That sounds remarkable similar to the Foxconn manufacturing plant.....

    Foxconn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Add to the fact his lack of Charitable actions when compared to his peers, and the fact he was so bloody openly bitter against Microsoft right until the day he died and it paints a pretty negative picture of the man. Sort of like the kid at school who always shouted "That's my idea, you can't use it".

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    So Hightower you don't think Jobs changed the future for the better, by pushing forward with the Apple II? Or for pushing forward with the GUI Mac OS, or the mouse? Don't focus on his new stuff alone, look at his entire life and career.

    His work and vision shaped the computer industry as it exists today.
    To be fair:
    Sinclair and commodores were mass produced for home use before the apple 2
    wasn't it xerox that created the first GUI OS?
    the mouse? xerox again wasn't it?

    He took existing products, slapped a bit of gloss on, and marketed it very well, to the point where he could rip people off and form an almost cult like fan base.

    I don't think a vision of marketing and making money would count as a "visionary" in my eyes, pretty sure Wayne Rooney visualizes winning every game by scoring goals..

    I'm thankful for him taking existing products, marketing them well, and pushing other company's to make cheaper and better versions of them.

    *braces for negrep*

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