Annual Leave / Holiday Entitlement

[witch]

Speaking as someone who has a partner NOT in education, I would like to point out that a HUGE number of people work very long hours EVERY WEEK, all year round, without the 13 weeks of holiday.
(I think 7 days 60 hours all the time could be a slight exaggeration)
I do not dispute that teachers work very hard, often on pointless paperwork, but it really annoys me when teachers seem to think that others work a standard 9 to 5.30 day and get big salaries. IT ISN'T TRUE.

And although I do agree that teacher's salaries do not ramp up very quickly, more and more employers in industry are using flatter 'employment trees' which means that there are more and more people at the lower end of the pay/management scale, and less and less chances for advancement upwards.
There has been a big push in recent years to improve teacher's salaries, and whilst I agree that they are still not brilliant, they are in line with more and more other types of work. For example, social work and the probation service, the police and nursing, all of which carry similar stress levels.

As I say, teachers work hard and have a very stressful job. But others do too without the nice pension as well.

[localzuk]

No, you've totally misunderstood or misread all my posts! I said that the 13+ weeks holiday comes at the price of a 7-day 60-hour working week, for a salary that is most uncompetitive.

If they are doing that much work then there is something majorly wrong. Most of the staff here get in at the same time as me (8:30) and leave before me (they're gone by 4:30 normally). They also have, maybe, a couple of hours of work to do each night (marking, planning etc...). Not even my father, who is the head of a department in a high school, works that much any more.

And maybe half a day at the weekend - so overall they do a couple more hours than me each week, yet I could be more highly qualified than them and am in a position that requires constant training (history doesn't change, geography doesn't change - the only things that change are dealt with during INSET and via the co-ordinators). Yet I receive a salary that is 25% less than an NQT and receive less than half the holiday entitlement.

[enjay]

@Localzuk - interesting to note that you vehemently dispute my claim to a 60-hour week and then give "actual" working times which add up to a similar number (53.5, assuming they get half an hour for lunch every day).

Can we leave this conversation where it is now, as I don't think it is going anyway productive. It appears to come down to a matter of how much time we all choose to give our employers free of charge outside of our contracted hours, and we surely can't criticise our employers if we're not happy with this?!

Back to the original question, perhaps?

[localzuk]

@Localzuk - interesting to note that you vehemently dispute my claim to a 60-hour week and then give "actual" working times which add up to a similar number (53.5, assuming they get half an hour for lunch every day).

Can we leave this conversation where it is now, as I don't think it is going anyway productive. It appears to come down to a matter of how much time we all choose to give our employers free of charge outside of our contracted hours, and we surely can't criticise our employers if we're not happy with this?!

Back to the original question, perhaps?

Nope, not gonna drop it as it is an important topic. 53.5 is not 60 hours, 7 days a week working. It is 5 and a half days a week working. There is a concept in economics that is called 'work to rule' which is employed by unions for industrial action - if staff were to work to rule (ie. their allotted working hours) then schools would simply crawl to a stop. To state that it is upto us how much work outside our contracted hours is just wrong, as it is expected of staff to work above these hours. All we ask for is a fair wage and a fair holiday entitlement which is comparible to the teachers'.

I find it interesting to note that you didn't bring up the information regarding qualifications and training that we all do in our own time in order to be able to do our jobs (I'd say I do around at least 5 hours a week of reading to keep on top of the latest updates, changes and the like). I can't do this during my working hours as there is simply not the time. So, if you compare my hours to a normal teacher, I am doing around 45 or so a week...

[enjay]

I find it interesting to note that you didn't bring up the information regarding qualifications and training that we all do in our own time in order to be able to do our jobs (I'd say I do around at least 5 hours a week of reading to keep on top of the latest updates, changes and the like). I can't do this during my working hours as there is simply not the time.

As I've previously said, I feel that keeping on top of such things is part of my job, and I therefore do it in work time. If this means that a task takes 3 days to complete and not 2, then so be it.

Being a geek, I also read up on stuff in my own time, but that is for personal interest or in relation to projects I'm involved in outside of work. Anything to do with my school I do in school.

[localzuk]

As I've previously said, I feel that keeping on top of such things is part of my job, and I therefore do it in work time. If this means that a task takes 3 days to complete and not 2, then so be it.

Being a geek, I also read up on stuff in my own time, but that is for personal interest or in relation to projects I'm involved in outside of work. Anything to do with my school I do in school.

Yes, but thats the point - many of us simply don't have the time to do it in work hours, it would mean far too much didn't get done in a timely manner.

[enjay]

Yes, but thats the point - many of us simply don't have the time to do it in work hours, it would mean far too much didn't get done in a timely manner.

I don't see that the solution to that is to put in lots of time for free at home. If the workload is too much to process even with decent time management, then action should be taken by the school to address this.

Options could be a) reducing your workload by moving some tasks to other staff members, b) recruiting extra technical staff (unlikely, I know!), c) accepting that stuff can't always be done for tomorrow and setting expectation accordingly, d) offering time-in-lieu for extra hours worked during busy periods.

[Geoff]

Yes, but thats the point - many of us simply don't have the time to do it in work hours, it would mean far too much didn't get done in a timely manner.

So your suffering from lack of Human resources. Talk to your line manager.

[webman]

Bottom line is; teachers get paid more than us, work less hours hours than us, but in an equally responsible and equally stressful job as ours.

[localzuk]

So your suffering from lack of Human resources. Talk to your line manager.

Well that wouldn't do anything. The school doesn't have the funds to take on any more staff...

[Geoff]

Well that wouldn't do anything. The school doesn't have the funds to take on any more staff...

Fair enough. Do what you can given the time constraints and staffing levels you have. If the SMT don't like the end result, well they are the ones who are in a position to sort it out.

[enjay]

Well that wouldn't do anything. The school doesn't have the funds to take on any more staff...

So consider the possible solutions which don't involve spending money.

Could some of the tasks which you currently do could be done by other people? e.g. an admin person handling the buying of consumables; teachers or prefects being responsible for stocking their printers with paper and changing cartridges; your cleaners/caretakers/estate management team cleaning computers.

Is part of the problem that people are making unrealistic demands on your time? If so, then (with SMT support) produce an SLA which says "we cannot install a new piece of software in 10 minutes flat, we need at least a week's notice".

Could your days be made more efficient in some way, for example, replacing that flakey application with one which requires less attention, or implementing a helpdesk / call handling system so people aren't constantly distracting you?

Are you repeatedly doing the same task over and over, or telling different people the same thing? If so, consider a different training program for your staff so that everyone gets told things at the same time, or perhaps you train a "super user" in each department who then trains their colleagues. Where one-off training isn't appropriate, write instruction manuals.

Obviously I don't know how much of this you already do or how much of it wouldn't work in your particular school for one reason or another, but these are practices which have proven successful here or in other schools I know about so would be worth considering.

[TechMonkey]

I don't see that the solution to that is to put in lots of time for free at home. If the workload is too much to process even with decent time management, then action should be taken by the school to address this.

Options could be a) reducing your workload by moving some tasks to other staff members, b) recruiting extra technical staff (unlikely, I know!), c) accepting that stuff can't always be done for tomorrow and setting expectation accordingly, d) offering time-in-lieu for extra hours worked during busy periods.

So surely that would be exactly the same position for teachers if they are working 60 hour weeks? You can't say that teachers have far too much to do that they have to take it home and then turn around and say we must do everything during the day so shouldn't be doing things after hours/in our own time! Case in point is we are starting to get sick of staff flopping around complaining about working a 6 period day (all the periods). I would love to have an hour or two of non contact time with staff or students to sort out stuff, document things or just time to concentrate on one task without disruption.

So as you say either teachers should put their feet down and say there is too much, learn to manage time better or get more staff in.

I think that a stereotype for teachers has gotten ingrained in most peoples minds, including the staff, that they are highly underpaid and highly overworked. This has got much better in recent times but it still seems to perpetuate. As WITCH says, it's not all rosey out in the big wide world.

Just as a disclaimer, I do love most the teachers here to bits, but teaching does seem to create whiney moments!

[bossman]

NickJones:

Moving some of my tasks to other staff members, which other staff members and what kind of work, do you think they would take kindly to being lumbered with more work when they themselves are snowed under.

as you say recruiting more staff would be unlikely.

Since when have the end users` been able to accept that they can't have what they want when they want.

Time in lieu for extra hours, possible but not practical because when are you gonna get the time to take the time off. You would then have to fit more work into less time.

You are lucky in the fact that you are in the position of being well paid and in a school which is independently financed, as you put it a "private school".

Some of us work in the real world and with much less funding than is reasonable and yet strive to give the school we work for very good networks and communications systems and then when we ask for a little recognition we are told by some of our more fortunate colleagues that we should be grateful as teachers are very hard workers, working all the hours and that they deserve what they get.

NickJones: I have already accepted this but what you have not conceded is that there are IT people in education that should also be getting what they deserve but you are not supporting them, you are winding them up with your rather pompous spiel about working in an independent school with lot's of hols and good pay to boot.

P.S You may not have done this intentionally and my colleagues and I accept any apologies you may wish to proffer.

[pallen]

Move tasks from us to other admin poeple??? I wouldn't dream of doing that. Most are overworked and underpaid as it is. They have taken over tasks previously done by a teacher which is now deemed "an admin task" and therefore a teacher can no longer do it under the "24 tasks". Which is fine in theory, what has happened in reality is that the non-teacher has had their workload increased without the equivalent money for the job(or shifting of workload). It seems that the money is only worth paying if you are qualified teacher.

Time management is only one part of the problem, due to the nature of our work, there are times when an imediate response is needed. As for training staff? Training days are a no go as there are more important matters that need to be dealt with (mostly teaching issues) so these days cant be used. As for training "super users", this would work if they could be contacted when any problems arrise, but as these teachers would likely be teaching, it is me who gets called first(it is my job after all ).

No extra staff can be hired (no money).

I get 22 days a year, only to be able to take them during non school time. I work for the school, but am employed by the local council. I dont get the advantage of flexi time and can only book holidays when it is more expensive. I get paid a lot less than NQTs and with the recent review of Job Evaluation may find that i am going to get even less. I knew when i started that i could only take holidays when the school is on holiday, but then i started on a term time contract until it was changed to allow me to do the updates maintence etc when the network is not used. I knew this was the case and still took the job. I think what annoys some poeple is that we get tagged as working for a school on one front and working for the council on another. We end up getting non of the benefits of either. I like my job, but it can get frustrating when you cant have a long weekend because you cant take a friday off for 7 weeks.