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General Chat Thread, The anti-piracy brigade is out again in the government in General; Originally Posted by Domino Really? I've bought a car before, but I might like a better one so I'll just ...
  1. #46

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    Really?

    I've bought a car before, but I might like a better one so I'll just go take it...


    The current Model is broken, and things are gonna be awful until there's a major overhaul.

    And as for 'just distribute your stuff cheaply or for free' look at my band, paid 1000 all in for recording our new ep. then we've distribution to pay, etc, etc

    We made the money for recording that from t-shirt sales, sales of the last ep and gigging. We've taken NOTHING for ourselves. and only actually put money in.

    The release for free model works if you're established...but what about if you need more exposure? and I'd love to just take off and gig 24x7 to do that, but I can't, cause there's no money in it at this level, so how do I pay my rent etc...?
    I don't know, there's plenty of weird little bands/artists I've paid money towards even though I can listen to their money for free through bandcamp. (A) in Mono is one such artist - i've bought all the albums on there. Or dB Soundworks. In my experience, people are willing to reward people who deserve it. I like music like that, so I give them money for it.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeMarchand View Post
    Not at all. If I go to an indexer and type in "how to cook an egg" or "how to perform mouth-to-mouth", it's unlikely that I'll get anything useful; if I go to Google chances are I will. The primary purpose of an indexer is to make it easy to find copyrighted files. If someone made one that only indexed child pornography people would quite rightly want it taken offline. They wouldn't be using your argument that people could use Google to try to find the stuff and besides which, the indexer isn't hosting the files and it's up to the downloader to make their choice. Just because a "standard" indexer can help people find files they feel it is their right to be able to download, they find arguments to justify their existence.
    the indexer indexes usenet or torrents. the content of that torrent is outside of their control.
    this is my point, im not justifying piracy or not, i'm saying that if a website says "if you go over there you will find X" and you go over there and find X, its not the indexers fault. you were the one who typed in X, you are the one using the software to download X.
    using your example, its like saying you google "how to cook an egg" and you follow the link, cook the egg and then blame google for the egg not coming out right. it was your decision to follow the link, it was your decision to do what the link provided, so you can't then blame someone else for just showing you where to go.

  3. #48

    ZeroHour's Avatar
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    From my own personal perspective:

    Spotify, even though it pays so little to artists, has killed the need to get music through other means. I use it all day every day and pay premium for it, I love it tbh and my friends love it. The only faults it really has are not everything is on it which sucks and also they appear to pay so little. I am curious why they pay so little but when you consider that major labels own major shares in it the % going to artists is always going to suck as no doubt share holders will take their % first.

    The problem facing the music industry is the genie is out of the bottle, its sad to say it but there is no real going back and this route wont fix anything, its literally wasting time/money. Music has been getting devalued greatly over the years and piracy is not the sole cause, the industry has in part done it to themselves. I know plenty who dont have a clue about torrents so instead they just watch the videos on youtube on demand when they want. These are videos put (certainly a lot now) there by the music industry themselves who will no doubt receive very little and even less goes to the artist. Youtube etc has helped greatly devalue music as people know its on youtube for free before you even get to the piracy angle, people see the cd/mp3 for sale for 8-12 and think well I could just watch it on youtube for free (mobile youtube too) which gives the perception that cd/mp3's are a rip off which stalls sales. Youtube is used by the industry to promote music which is good but in a age when everyone is permanently connected to the net there must be a realisation that unlike the old promo methods of mtv/radio which are not play when you want they have helped negate one of the benefits of paying cash for music, to listen to it when you want. Piracy gets blamed for pretty much everything and although it will no doubt have an effect the industry has not helped themselves with other tactics.

    In this age people consume more music then ever before and there is more out there then ever before which that means all music must go down in price for all to enjoy more of it to give more a chance to make it bigger. If I had to buy every track I listened to on spotify I would be spending easily 100 a month of music as now I listen to more then I ever did thanks to the flat rate charge of spotify. If spotify/piracy/youtube was gone tomorrow I would not start spending 100 a month, I would just find something else cheap to do which music boss's need to understand, right now music is big entertainment because its available. More artists get more shots at getting big but many wont, its a hard fact but thinking that getting rid of piracy/youtube etc would give you a better shot is madness, no one will even give you a chance unlike now where you have a shot to make it big because so much is listened too. Cesil I wish your son all the best but you really need to see the metrics working against him breaking through, saying piracy prevents him making cash in the future is sadly a little short sighted, piracy/youtube/spotify that pay nothing/practically nothing to him is actually giving him the best chance to make it big, you can charge 10 a cd and have them all order direct with DRM that can be broken on the cd but sadly if no one has heard of you or heard your music no one will pay. He is also going into a very crowded market where there are more artists then ever before thanks to home production getting far better then it was before and the fact so many want to *make it big* as it were. Sadly as well, many need to realise they never will make it big and thinking they deserve too or blaming everything else other then the quality of the music being produced is a hard lesson needing to be learned. Its not an easy game and for some reason too many think its easy street money, you have to be really good to make it big generally (although exceptions exist on both sides of that) and many who try simply are not. If it was easy we would all be making a mint off it.

    All these things need to be seen as what they are, tools for driving other revenue streams. Gigs etc (when you make it big) can give a far higher payout rate then sales nowadays, also direct sales too cut out the middle man but both of these need you to break through and become big, piracy/youtube/spotify/free is the best chance you have of making it big without a major label promoting you and even then with major label promotion you wont necessarily make it big and you have just sold a lot of rights to them in the process in case you ever do.
    I dont want to aggravate anyone but truly piracy needs to be seen as an opportunity rather then hated like it is, promotion is needed and thats one way to do it, certainly thinking getting rid of it will mean more artists will succeed is madness imho as far less will break through as people wont risk the cash blindly. The old cd model is slowly dying and more other approaches need to be thought of rather then holding on to the past, its sad but true right now its a consumers market, dont try to break the consumer.

    To flip this around, we at edugeek make money from ad banners, which helps pay for BETT for our members and our conferences etc and the running costs of the site, not to line our own pockets with huge revenue. I know many run ad blockers (really its REALLY easy to detect and ban) and I also know some LEA's block them for all browsing (really really bad) but rather then focusing on that % and banning/blocking we have to accept it and try and encourage you to not use ad blockers on edugeek as so much money is pumped back into the members. Would you prefer we took a *piracy* stance and blocked access/banned because we receive nothing from the users traffic but actually have costs associated with the visiting? in the lightest way ad blocking could be seen as theft in the same way piracy has been, technically your paying nothing for the content/costs etc but we dont, we accept there is a % that wont and we see the other benefits associated with the visitor and dont focus on the fact they ad block (although please dont ).

    Regarding Trent, he gave away his last album himself on the pirate bay, he then sold direct flac/high quality versions as well as 1000 limited edition boxes and he said he made more money from the 1000 limited editions then he made from a previous album through the labels but yes he is famous, the point is more there are other possible sources and they do work. The flac was 5 and after listening to the album I bought it direct myself, 5 for flac is a great deal and thats a good price point for me myself, 8 for 256k on itunes is not so I use spotify so at least something is paid.

    This has been another coffee fuelled binge of text so please excuse the poor typing, I will probably edit later.
    Last edited by ZeroHour; 16th September 2011 at 01:38 PM.

  4. 6 Thanks to ZeroHour:

    Arthur (16th September 2011), Dos_Box (16th September 2011), Fatmas (16th September 2011), MK-2 (16th September 2011), stevenlong1985 (16th September 2011), teejay (16th September 2011)

  5. #49

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    There is also 'The Marillion Model' which prompted a lot of other bands with stong followings yet poor industry backing to follow: The fans' band - Features, Music - The Independent

  6. #50

    localzuk's Avatar
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    The reason Spotify pay so little is determined via labels - the price paid is set by the various licensing agencies, who are controlled by the labels. Artists basically don't get a say for the majority of artists on there.

    Also, remember the amount is 'per play', which is difficult to compare to 'per disc/album sold'. To compare - each person playing a song would need to play it about 345 times over its lifetime to have the same use from it. Sounds a lot, but it isn't.

  7. #51

    ZeroHour's Avatar
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    Lol I like how a thread with a reply coming every 20-45 minutes is killed when I post....

  8. #52
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    Everybody said their piece, and now the boss has spoken. So we are all scared in case we get a Malcolm Tucker esque dressing down.

  9. #53

    ZeroHour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatmas View Post
    Everybody said their piece, and now the boss has spoken. So we are all scared in case we get a Malcolm Tucker esque dressing down.
    LMAO, I am Scottish as well that show rocks!

  10. #54
    Fatmas's Avatar
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    "Jesus Christ, see you, you are a ******* omni-shambles, that's what you are. You're like that coffee machine, you know, From bean to cup, you **** up." - Classic.

  11. #55

    ZeroHour's Avatar
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    This is so OT but:
    "I've got a to-do list here that's longer than a ******* Leonard Cohen song. "

    For more see: The Thick of It Episode #3.1 (2009) - Memorable quotes Thats one episode! SWEAR BEAR WARNING!!!!

  12. #56

    webman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroHour View Post
    Lol I like how a thread with a reply coming every 20-45 minutes is killed when I post....
    No, we're just still reading it

  13. #57

    X-13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by webman View Post
    No, we're just still reading it
    TL;DR

    I tried... I really did. But it's early and I'm still on my first coffee.

  14. #58

    MK-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroHour View Post
    Lol I like how a thread with a reply coming every 20-45 minutes is killed when I post....
    I propose your username is changed henceforth forthwith to :

    Buzz Killington

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    I'm a little confused by the inconsistency of it all.

    BT block sites because they give people the means to find downloadable copyrighted material but don't block iTunes etc. eventhough it gives people the means to rip CDs and be in breach of copyright laws.

    HBJB

  16. #60

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