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General Chat Thread, The anti-piracy brigade is out again in the government in General; Originally Posted by LeMarchand There's no "feel" about it; we all know that the prime function of a torrent site ...
  1. #31

    MK-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeMarchand View Post
    There's no "feel" about it; we all know that the prime function of a torrent site or similar is that you can get free media. Yes, you can also get legitimately free stuff (eg Linux distros) but I'm betting that such files are a tiny percentage of the bandwidth used.
    But a torrent/usenet indexing site doesn't host the files, they provide a list of what is available. if a torrent site were to go, there are still other ways to get the torrents, so you aren't doing anything to actually stop torrent sharing by stopping access to a site that indexes what is available.
    the problem is, does it stop at torrent sites. as i said, if a big company doesn't like a smaller company doing something, will they be able to force a court order through shutting that site down because it "infringes copyright".

    - i go to a torrent site, i type in "harry potter" and it gives me a link to someone sharing the harry potter movie. i then need another means (torrent software etc) to actually get the movie and have moved completely away from the torrent site
    - i go to a search engine, i type in "bomb making" and it gives me a link to a website showing me how to make a bomb. i then need another means (buying the equipment) to actually make the bomb and have completely moved away from the search engine.

    both are a means to an end, but how can you justify shutting one site down because of it and leaving another operational?

  2. #32

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    Nobody is potentially loosing money when you search for 'bomb making'

    I think the government wants to be seen to be doing something, but as it doesn't seem to fully understand how it works it's not quite sure what.
    Lots of money was spent ensuting BT blocked access to Newzbin2, but already there is a way round it. Newzbin2 pirates prepare to sink BT web block ? The Register

    Using new and old legislation might stop the occasional downloader, but i doubt it will do anything to stop the hardcore pirate.

  3. #33

    LeMarchand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    both are a means to an end, but how can you justify shutting one site down because of it and leaving another operational?
    One has one major purpose: enabling the distribution of copyright infringing files; the other can be used in many ways and the illegal possibilities are far outweighed by the legal ones. Your argument is similar to "we don't let people wander around with swords because they can be used to kill people, so why don't we ban all knives?"

  4. #34
    Fatmas's Avatar
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    This has probably been said already but here is my opinion:

    The key flaw in copyright/piracy law is that the Government believes 1 "illegal" download = 1 lost sale. That's simply not the case. If I downloaded US TV shows and then found I couldn't anymore I wouldn't go out and buy them all on DVD, I would probably just not watch them. The creators are not losing anything.

    Another Example: I like NOFX. I have bought many of their albums (Approx 10 each for sake of argument) and have seem them live maybe 4 times (25 each). Yet if I were to download an old album or maybe their latest one I would be considered a thief and could be prosecuted. That just doesn't make any sense.

    I cannot find the source but many studies have shown that people who so called "pirate" music/films/games etc... actually spend more money purchasing this media legally than people who don't. The pricing system and structure of the entire media industry is broken.

    Almost to the end of my scattered thoughts:

    Why should I risk paying between 10-15 for an album I might not like? If I like it I will generally buy it or at least buy the other albums and/or future albums by that artist.


    I really don't think "Piracy" is hurting the music/film/TV/game industry. For musicians: Get out there and play gigs, distribute your music for very cheap or use Trent Reznor's model; let people pay what they want for your music. If it's too tough for you I'm not being funny but maybe you are in the wrong business?


    /End Rant :-)

  5. #35
    Fatmas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    But a torrent/usenet indexing site doesn't host the files, they provide a list of what is available. if a torrent site were to go, there are still other ways to get the torrents, so you aren't doing anything to actually stop torrent sharing by stopping access to a site that indexes what is available.
    the problem is, does it stop at torrent sites. as i said, if a big company doesn't like a smaller company doing something, will they be able to force a court order through shutting that site down because it "infringes copyright".

    - i go to a torrent site, i type in "harry potter" and it gives me a link to someone sharing the harry potter movie. i then need another means (torrent software etc) to actually get the movie and have moved completely away from the torrent site
    - i go to a search engine, i type in "bomb making" and it gives me a link to a website showing me how to make a bomb. i then need another means (buying the equipment) to actually make the bomb and have completely moved away from the search engine.

    both are a means to an end, but how can you justify shutting one site down because of it and leaving another operational?


    Agreed, the logic of shutting down Torrent searching sites is similar to shutting down Google because you can search for illegal pornography. You can even search for Torrents in Google!

  6. #36

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeMarchand View Post
    I guess that everyone who likes Trent Reznor dutifully sends him some cash, then) when what it REALLY amounts to is "WAAAHHH!!!! They're taking my free stuff away!"
    I remember reading an interview with Trent Reznor saying that since he started selling his music independently, whilst offering the free downloads, his income had shot up compared to when he was with his label. I know I've paid for several albums of his since he did that.

  7. #37

    LeMarchand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I remember reading an interview with Trent Reznor saying that since he started selling his music independently, whilst offering the free downloads, his income had shot up compared to when he was with his label. I know I've paid for several albums of his since he did that.
    Missing the point, or I wasn't clear: people often trot out the "if the nasty media corps weren't ripping off artists, there'd be less piracy" argument. My point was that (at least on the stuff he owns the copyright to) no-one is ripping TR off, and yet I'm fairly sure there's plenty of his stuff on torrent sites and that the majority of folk don't download it and think "yeah, that was good - I'll send Trent some money for that".

  8. #38

    MK-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeMarchand View Post
    One has one major purpose: enabling the distribution of copyright infringing files; the other can be used in many ways and the illegal possibilities are far outweighed by the legal ones. Your argument is similar to "we don't let people wander around with swords because they can be used to kill people, so why don't we ban all knives?"
    but you are missing the point. if i set up a site that will search usenet for whatever the user types in, i am not enabling the distribution of illegal files any differently than if i went to google and typed "download X mp3". both will show you where the file is, but won't host it themselves.
    a usenet indexer and google do nothing differently, they give you an answer, how you use that answer is up to you. if you choose to go on a usenet site and download illegal files, that's you, not the site at fault. you have the choice to say "no wait, i wont do that"....again much in the same way if you search for illegal files in google, you still have the choice NOT to click the result and download it.

  9. #39


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    Bottom line is that this argument will go on and on and on until we either can't log-on to any but Government and Multi-National approved web-sites or the film and recording industries join us all in the 21st century and evolve their business models accordingly.

    I know which I'd prefer.

  10. #40

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeMarchand View Post
    Missing the point, or I wasn't clear: people often trot out the "if the nasty media corps weren't ripping off artists, there'd be less piracy" argument. My point was that (at least on the stuff he owns the copyright to) no-one is ripping TR off, and yet I'm fairly sure there's plenty of his stuff on torrent sites and that the majority of folk don't download it and think "yeah, that was good - I'll send Trent some money for that".
    Along with the point MK-2 makes, you missed one of my points with Trent Reznor. He makes his music available for free download, yet still makes a lot of money. You don't have to rip people off to make money.

  11. #41

    Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatmas View Post
    Another Example: I like NOFX. I have bought many of their albums (Approx 10 each for sake of argument) and have seem them live maybe 4 times (25 each). Yet if I were to download an old album or maybe their latest one I would be considered a thief and could be prosecuted. That just doesn't make any sense.
    Really?

    I've bought a car before, but I might like a better one so I'll just go take it...


    The current Model is broken, and things are gonna be awful until there's a major overhaul.

    And as for 'just distribute your stuff cheaply or for free' look at my band, paid 1000 all in for recording our new ep. then we've distribution to pay, etc, etc

    We made the money for recording that from t-shirt sales, sales of the last ep and gigging. We've taken NOTHING for ourselves. and only actually put money in.

    The release for free model works if you're established...but what about if you need more exposure? and I'd love to just take off and gig 24x7 to do that, but I can't, cause there's no money in it at this level, so how do I pay my rent etc...?
    Last edited by Domino; 16th September 2011 at 01:17 PM.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    but you are missing the point.
    Not at all. If I go to an indexer and type in "how to cook an egg" or "how to perform mouth-to-mouth", it's unlikely that I'll get anything useful; if I go to Google chances are I will. The primary purpose of an indexer is to make it easy to find copyrighted files. If someone made one that only indexed child pornography people would quite rightly want it taken offline. They wouldn't be using your argument that people could use Google to try to find the stuff and besides which, the indexer isn't hosting the files and it's up to the downloader to make their choice. Just because a "standard" indexer can help people find files they feel it is their right to be able to download, they find arguments to justify their existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthling View Post
    Bottom line is that this argument will go on and on and on until we either can't log-on to any but Government and Multi-National approved web-sites or the film and recording industries join us all in the 21st century and evolve their business models accordingly.

    I know which I'd prefer.
    but its not a technological problem before the internet you just used a twin tape deck and voila another copy. Granted the internet makes it easier but companies dont help themselves. Technically if i lend someone one of my xbox 360 games im breaking copyright law in the real world wheres the harm in that and in some cases it can be so much harder to find certain music tracks say in hmv/itunes and again with tv progs what if it dosent air in the uk and isnt released on dvd who am i causing a problem for?

  14. #44

    LeMarchand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    The release for free model works if you're established...but what about if you need more exposure? and I'd love to just take off and gig 24x7 to do that, but I can't, cause there's no money in it at this level, so how to I pay my rent etc...?
    Good point. I've often wondered just how well Trent Reznor (he always gets mentioned in these discussions, doesn't he?) would be doing if he hadn't had his initial exposure via a record company.

  15. #45
    Fatmas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    Really?

    I've bought a car before, but I might like a better one so I'll just go take it...


    The current Model is broken, and things are gonna be awful until there's a major overhaul.

    And as for 'just distribute your stuff cheaply or for free' look at my band, paid 1000 all in for recording our new ep. then we've distribution to pay, etc, etc

    We made the money for recording that from t-shirt sales, sales of the last ep and gigging. We've taken NOTHING for ourselves. and only actually put money in.

    The release for free model works if you're established...but what about if you need more exposure? and I'd love to just take off and gig 24x7 to do that, but I can't, cause there's no money in it at this level, so how do I pay my rent etc...?

    The car example is completely different. I've put hundreds of pounds into NoFX and many other bands over the years, I don't think I should be considered a "thief" for downloading one of their albums. Granted they are well established.


    For you guys gigging just so you know, I'm the guy who will go to a gig and buy EP's and Tshirts from the lesser known support bands, because let's be honest, you guys usually need the cash more than the headliners! If I like the EP, chances are I'll buy the album when it's released.

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