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General Chat Thread, The anti-piracy brigade is out again in the government in General; He's probably not going to get rich from people downloading his music legally via iTunes or streaming music services such ...
  1. #16


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    He's probably not going to get rich from people downloading his music legally via iTunes or streaming music services such as Spotify...



    Quote Originally Posted by CESIL View Post
    Well maybe by the time my son is releasing his seventh or eight album he will have made enough money to consider doing the same
    Less well-known artists (e.g. Hybrid, Amon Tobin, Rupert Parkes) sell music directly via their websites too. He doesn't have to give it away!
    Last edited by Arthur; 16th September 2011 at 12:47 AM.

  2. #17

    MK-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CESIL View Post
    Sorry to repeat myself (well not really sorry) but here goes...

    My son is hoping to make a career as a singer/songwriter...how does he make a living at it if people feel free to distribute his work to each other on the basis that as they have bought one copy then it's fair enough to pass it on to their friends...or even to millions of people they don't know via P2P sites?

    Oh and yes I did sometimes make a copy of a record or tape for a friend back in the day so I am guilty of the same offence...but it was only an occasional copy...not uploading the stuff for countless numbers of users to download...

    And while I am venting my spleen...how is this sort of "sharing" different from those who helped themselves to goods from shops during the riots because they had already been broken into?

    And finally, I am really tired of hearing the old "rip-off" argument...it's only a rip-off if you are daft enough to buy at the offered price..if you think something is too expensive then don't buy it...if enough people vote with their wallets then the price will soon come down...caveat emptor!
    this wasn't really my point. its not the fact that it affects people, its the assumptions made in every area.
    lets say, for example, i heard that there is a new artist out called cesils son, i've never heard of him so i go online and illegally download an mp3 of his track. first of all its assumed i have now stolen that track. i haven't, i have infringed his copyright. he is still in possession of the song, i have copied it, not stolen it. thats the first assumption being made by the government and all these agencies.
    now lets say i've heard the track and think "i hate it"....its now assumed i have deprived him of a legitimate sale. its assumed that i would have bought the song regardless, which obviously i wouldn't. these are the things im on about.

    if assumptions are going to be common place then i dont think anyone would be happy being pulled over by the police just because they have been shopping and bought some beer, and the police now assume they are drink driving....no proof but they put two and two together and came out with drunk.

    my other point was that this sort of precedent is dangerous. lets use again the example of your son. lets say he has made well of being an artist and has his own website selling his music online. now lets say apple, for example, would prefer him to sell his music only via itunes so go to the courts with some made up infringement and get his site shut down. your son has now lost his main revenue because the courts have shut his site down for all the wrong reasons because a bigger company said so.

    i know its not a perfect example, but this is what i'm on about. its not purely about piracy, its the fact the government are giving control to people who will more often than not be influenced by these big companies for their own needs and will not always do what is best in general (look at cleanfeed....aimed at stopping child pornography....now also used to stop little johnny downloading a lady gaga mp3)

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    mthomas08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Is it not the case that a judge and jury should make that decision, rather than some jumped up bureaucrat in an office, trying to make is rich friends richer?
    Totally agreed, but then the same could be said for those who steal all the time (including those who did while rioting was on).

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    Less well-known artists (e.g. Hybrid, Amon Tobin, Rupert Parkes) sell music directly via their websites too. He doesn't have to give it away!
    However with no label/distribution backing its hard to get your music heard over the millions of other artists online.

    Those people may be less well known, but they're still pretty well backed.

  5. #20

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    Personally, I download things to try them out.

    Download a game, because there are no demos.
    Download music, because I want to listen to it before I buy it.
    Download/stream movies, because I'm not 100% sure it's something I'd like. [I've been misled with films before... Looks cool, actually sucks.]

    No one is losing any money. If I don't like it, they weren't getting my money anyway, and if I do I pay for it.

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  7. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by X-13 View Post
    Personally, I download things to try them out.

    Download a game, because there are no demos.
    Download music, because I want to listen to it before I buy it.
    Download/stream movies, because I'm not 100% sure it's something I'd like. [I've been misled with films before... Looks cool, actually sucks.]

    No one is losing any money. If I don't like it, they weren't getting my money anyway, and if I do I pay for it.
    thats the thing i bet a lot of people are like that cdownload an album if its good i will buy it if not the delete it (yes you hear odd tracks on the radio but the rest of the album may be utter garbage)

    and what about tv progs that arnt avaliable on dvd and never will be where is the harm in downloading them if they arnt for sale who are you depriving of income?

  8. #22

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    I think also the point is the Labels and Distributors make SO much. Why not make it fairer and give the artist (that they are so worried about losing out) a larger cut rather than funding a whole industry to persecute your customers? Or miss out on that corporate jet this year and spread the money around? They try and make themselves out to be squeaky clean (which is a laugh in itself with stories like Hollywood Accounting and the RIAA using tunes illegally for their own adverts) & yet are the biggest thieves around!
    Arguments like "ohhh we take all the risk so have to make a large profit to cover this" are rubbish when you see they aren't taking risks. It's all FUBAR & they are just trying to hang on to an outdated model.

  9. #23

    LeMarchand's Avatar
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    This discussion is always full of the same arguments, and no-one is ever moved to "change sides" (so I don't actually know why I'm bothering to post this) but:

    Yes, some people "try before they buy" or wouldn't have bought anyway, but huge amounts never buy and may well have bought if it hadn't been available for free. For instance, I'm fairly sure that someone I know with an HDD full of torrented movies could afford the DVDs and would be a bit less free with doling them out to all and sundry if she'd have to pay to replace them should they fail to be returned. My personal observations are that very few people who download via illegal channels later buy - why would they when they can just keep what they have on increasingly cheap hard or optical disk?

    The "why should I pay for something that might be rubbish?" argument annoys me a bit. Why not either wait until it's cheap, or not buy? Would you demand your money back if (say) a footie match turned out not to be as epic as you hoped?

  10. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeMarchand View Post
    The "why should I pay for something that might be rubbish?" argument annoys me a bit. Why not either wait until it's cheap, or not buy? Would you demand your money back if (say) a footie match turned out not to be as epic as you hoped?
    If I bought a computer, or a TV and found out it was rubbish, I'd take it back...

    The issue is not as simple as either of the points you made. It is a complex issue with many causes. Another one is the price of this stuff. Look at video games, a new release is 40+. You'd have to be insane to pay that. I've not bought a 'new' game straight up since C&C Red Alert 2. They're simply unaffordable to most people. Independent game makers like Mojang and Re-Logic have the right idea with their pricing - price it reasonably and people will buy it en-masse. Notch has become very rich from selling a game for €15. Would he have if he had been selling at €50?

  11. #25

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    @CESIL He should try Bandcamp.

    Buy a commercial DVD or BlueRay? With all the non-skippable ads and copyright warnings? And having to use a physical disc and all of the faffing around that entails? Or alternatively launch a computer file and get straight into the action. I know which one is more convenient and which one I prefer.
    Last edited by webman; 16th September 2011 at 11:24 AM.

  12. 3 Thanks to webman:

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  13. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeMarchand View Post
    This discussion is always full of the same arguments, and no-one is ever moved to "change sides" (so I don't actually know why I'm bothering to post this) but:

    Yes, some people "try before they buy" or wouldn't have bought anyway, but huge amounts never buy and may well have bought if it hadn't been available for free. For instance, I'm fairly sure that someone I know with an HDD full of torrented movies could afford the DVDs and would be a bit less free with doling them out to all and sundry if she'd have to pay to replace them should they fail to be returned. My personal observations are that very few people who download via illegal channels later buy - why would they when they can just keep what they have on increasingly cheap hard or optical disk?

    The "why should I pay for something that might be rubbish?" argument annoys me a bit. Why not either wait until it's cheap, or not buy? Would you demand your money back if (say) a footie match turned out not to be as epic as you hoped?
    to be honest this is completely sidetracking from the original point anyway. its not about should you buy or not, its should we be giving groups of people the ability to just kill parts of the internet because they "feel" that area is illegally spreading music files?
    its in the same sense that i can go on google, type in BOMB MAKING and get links to sites that show how to make a bomb, i can also use google to go to various sites to buy the equipment needed to make the bomb, i can probably also use google to find out a specific bus/train route, etc. so by all intents google has aided in terrorism. i already wanted to be the terrorist but it has aided in terrorism.

    so if i already want to download an illegal mp3, this site is just aiding in it. so by fairness if you shut down a site for telling you where to go to get illegal movies, you must shut down sites that can tell you where to get other things illegally.

  14. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    If I bought a computer, or a TV and found out it was rubbish, I'd take it back...
    and also using that example, how would a store such as hmv cope if you went in and said "i bought this cd, its rubbish, i want my money back and no longer want to own it" i guess they will refuse, probably on grounds you could have copied it.

  15. #28

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    What hacks me off is that why the government are hell bent on protecting musicians, software developers and film distributors - but have let coal mining, metal workers,ship builders and car manufacturers go to the wall. Why can't they understand that most of these goods are grossly overpriced (just like the services I had quoted) and people in their millions, wether rightly or wrongly are looking to other methods to obtain these goods cheaper or for free (cough).

  16. #29

    LeMarchand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    to be honest this is completely sidetracking from the original point anyway. its not about should you buy or not, its should we be giving groups of people the ability to just kill parts of the internet because they "feel" that area is illegally spreading music files?
    There's no "feel" about it; we all know that the prime function of a torrent site or similar is that you can get free media. Yes, you can also get legitimately free stuff (eg Linux distros) but I'm betting that such files are a tiny percentage of the bandwidth used.

    I'm not saying it's good that the media companies are exerting such influence over the governments; I just get a bit tired over the righteous indignation and tired old arguments (by the way, do people really think that if the artists got a fair share of the income, people would stop downloading illegitimately? I guess that everyone who likes Trent Reznor dutifully sends him some cash, then) when what it REALLY amounts to is "WAAAHHH!!!! They're taking my free stuff away!"

  17. #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeMarchand View Post
    <snip> Would you demand your money back if (say) a footie match turned out not to be as epic as you hoped?
    Uhh........yes, I would, actually.

    BBC Sport - Arsenal offer free tickets to fans after Man Utd thrashing

    I'm not a Gooner, but fair play to the Arse.

    Not exactly giving the money back, but close enough.

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