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General Chat Thread, London Riots in General; Originally Posted by Dos_Box I trust the Guardian as much as I trust the Daily Mail, in fact should either ...
  1. #316

    mattx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    I trust the Guardian as much as I trust the Daily Mail, in fact should either paper come into physical contact with the other something very 'bad' will happen to our universe.
    I also note that Mr McDonnell is a labour MP and is duty bound to blame the riots on anything but his parties running of the country for the past 13 years.
    You obviously don't know Mr McDonnell then Dos_Box as he has never been duty bound and if you >actually< read the short paragraph - IE: We are reaping what has been sown over the last three decades of creating a grotesquely unequal society with an ethos of grab as much as you can by any means
    I think you will find that covers both the left and right.

    Whilst I'm at it:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chavs-Demoni...3097736&sr=8-1

    It's a good read but you may not enjoy it as it's written by a leftie.
    Last edited by mattx; 11th August 2011 at 10:23 PM.

  2. #317
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    I just broke my TV watching Question Time. Anyone know where I can another one, cheap?

  3. #318

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    So... if you recognised any of the toe-rags in the mug shots the police are showing to the world, would you shop them?

    I only ask because it's occurred to me that there must be school staff in the affected areas who are recognising a fair number these youths. We were debating this in school at lunch time. It's hypothetical in our case... our town is so unlikely to be affected by rioting or looting unless anyone really wants the contents of a charity shop. The majority opinion was that we would, but there were a few voicing the opinion that it would be difficult for them to do so in case the youngster concerned was actually innocent or it caused a breakdown of trust in their school.

  4. #319

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    Yes, I would shop them. Done it before and would do it again. If I was there seeing them do it I would arrest them myself. Done it with shoplifters, vandals and muggers!

    But I am also happy to try and work with them afterwards to pull them out of the pit they might be in ... But there has to be effort on both sides ... And right now there is little coming from the other side.

    I do believe that youth clubs and community work can improve things, but it cannot work in the way it used to ... Even if you go back 10 years and look at support for youth initiatives, they would find it difficult.

    It used to be that the community would help build the activities for young people, would support youth clubs and sports events. It is difficult to do that now. Trying to break down the barriers put in place, partly by the young people and partly by the circumstances they are in, is nigh on impossible. Gang ang youth cultured is fueled by the idea of "i want!" with little consideration for consequences. This is fueled by years of growth, of easy money through loans, of state support with few achievable targets, of a system that just could not cope ... And you can't blame one party or another as many of the local council run and work on their own initiatives and so many have been found to be ineffective ... when there are any, that is.

    I do hope that all the filters and looters get caught, sentenced and serve their time or whatever punishment they get. I also hope that a serious look is taken to look at rehabilitation whilst they are in jail (if they get a custodial sentence) and is continue when they are back in the community.

    For all those who have said (on the news, in the papers and online) that they can understand why it went up in flames, I hope they are also sitting down with their community trying to see what they can do to stop it happening again. As much as people might ridicule the Big Society, I do think that we are going to have to do a fair chunk of this on our own, with minimal funds, with limit resources and try to get as many people involved as we can.

  5. #320

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    Birmingham Riots 2011 - Inspirational People

    There are people on here like Tariq Jahan but also things like builders offering free riot repairs.

  6. #321

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    just to throw some more info in, I have two kids. Only one of them is mine. When it was a single parent family my boy was brought up beautifully by his mum. When I joined the picture he continued to act wonderfully. When his sister came along he acted out a bit, as you would expect, as he was an only child for five years. However we as parents nipped it and told him what was right and what was wrong and he was punished if he did something wrong intentionally. He is now a wonderful big brother who loves school and always wants to help people.

    His sister has recently been two and is now starting to be naughty. I'm going to do the same with her.

    My point is, if you bring your children up properly then I don't see how they can turn out like this. I know its hard but I like to think my kids will keep talking to me if they have problems when they're older.

  7. #322

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  8. #323
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    If the entire reason why someone is rioting and looting is "free stuff / smashing things up is fun / police are outnumbered so chances of getting caught are low" there's still questions to be asked from that about why the urge to gratify your own urge for free stuff and fun trumps the rule of law, your sense of community, your thought for the people whose lives you are endangering when you torch a building, your thought for the small business owners who are getting screwed over etc. Once you know the answers to those questions, how you fix things in the future so that this doesn't happen again.

    I've actually been suprised at how little the government seem to be interested in looking for deeper explanations. I'm not expecting much out of Cameron et al, but I expected that it would at least be part of the message. And as far as I can tell it simply isn't. It seems looking deeper would be a waste of time because some people will always make bad moral decisions because that's fundamentally the human condition.

    How depressing.
    Last edited by tommej; 12th August 2011 at 11:18 AM.

  9. #324
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  10. #325

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsiegee40 View Post
    So... if you recognised any of the toe-rags in the mug shots the police are showing to the world, would you shop them?

    I only ask because it's occurred to me that there must be school staff in the affected areas who are recognising a fair number these youths. We were debating this in school at lunch time. It's hypothetical in our case... our town is so unlikely to be affected by rioting or looting unless anyone really wants the contents of a charity shop. The majority opinion was that we would, but there were a few voicing the opinion that it would be difficult for them to do so in case the youngster concerned was actually innocent or it caused a breakdown of trust in their school.
    I'd shop them, definitely. It isn't our jobs to prosecute them, merely to aid enquiries, matching names to faces. It is then up to the police and courts to do the rest of the leg work. If they turn out to be innocent of any crime, that's great, but if you don't match names to faces, how will they check that?

  11. #326


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    How about people who are on the dole, in jail, etc, doing some public construction work like Germany did before the war? We are in desperate need of infrastructure, both communications and transport. Get them building roads, rail links, new coms pipes between and in cities...

    Obviously it would cost money for the materials, tools, and specialists, but then that is injecting money into the country and keeping those people in jobs while keeping costs down to a minimum as all the labouring is free.

  12. #327

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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    How about people who are on the dole, in jail, etc, doing some public construction work like Germany did before the war? We are in desperate need of infrastructure, both communications and transport. Get them building roads, rail links, new coms pipes between and in cities...

    Obviously it would cost money for the materials, tools, and specialists, but then that is injecting money into the country and keeping those people in jobs while keeping costs down to a minimum as all the labouring is free.
    I've said this, or do something along the lines of the US New Deal during the Great Depression. But the huggy feelies say this is slave labour and against human rights. Also that it takes jobs from others, isn't cost effective etc etc.

  13. #328

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    Irish rioter.... smashed up his laptop trying to get into ebay...

    Dwarf Rioter... tried getting into a butcher shop... after 10 mins gives up as "the steaks are too high".

    Rioter running down the street with a naan bread and a vindaloo.... his mates says "that isnt what i meant when I said lets rob currys"

  14. Thanks to mac_shinobi from:

    tech_guy (16th August 2011)

  15. #329

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    How about people who are on the dole, in jail, etc, doing some public construction work like Germany did before the war? We are in desperate need of infrastructure, both communications and transport. Get them building roads, rail links, new coms pipes between and in cities...

    Obviously it would cost money for the materials, tools, and specialists, but then that is injecting money into the country and keeping those people in jobs while keeping costs down to a minimum as all the labouring is free.
    I've yet to actually meet anyone who disagrees with the idea of getting people on the dole to do work for their money. I just wonder why the government doesn't actually discuss it.

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    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I've yet to actually meet anyone who disagrees with the idea of getting people on the dole to do work for their money. I just wonder why the government doesn't actually discuss it.
    Give an employer a choice between cheap labour from those on benefits and paying for staff on minimum wage with full rights ... most will take the former ... putting the latter out of work, who subsequently become people on benefits working for less than minimum wage ... and so the cycle continues.

    It does get looked at every so often, usually as an attempt to make going to work more cost effective for those on benefits (so they don't lose out) whilst stopping employers extracting the urine for cheap staff. Working tax credits were an attempt at this ...

    I am all for people completing voluntary work to get a slightly higher level of benefits but where is the work and where do the funds come from. If Job seekers' allowance was converted into a state employment fund where you have to attend a number of areas of 'work' (ranging from clearance of community land through to working on the country's infrastructure) but still allowed sufficient time for them to look for work ... you would get a few problems.

    1 - The idea of community sentencing, where convicted criminals work in the community, would that still be possible or do we force criminals into a form of slavery, getting them to do even more menial work? Not very good for rehabilitation IME (studies in the states on this vary ... some say the more menial the better, others show the more menial the higher the rate of re-offending ... but this is from studies about 8-10 years old)

    2 - What happens when a job needs to be done, such as clearing and re-lining of canals, which could be important to the country but the people managing the work (and held accountable) have to rely on the 'benefit labour force' who could make disastrous mistakes and cost the company a lot of money. It would mean that it would be hard to justify highly skilled unemployed people would end up having to do increasingly menial work with little or no responsibility ... and that really helps them get back into their true field of employment again (which could simply be having a downturn).

    3 - This is a little too close to the idea of National Service for some people ... and how long could you do it for? Is it actually not National Service but conscription? Would we end up with more people claiming physical or mental issues which stop them from taking part on what would end up being menial, physical labour?

    Remember that we are not just asking about the unemployed who rioted, but those in employment, those still in education or training, those who do not seek benefits because they have alternative (usually illegal) incomes.

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