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General Chat Thread, London Riots in General; Originally Posted by jamesb What we need is people not wanting to commit crimes, because they're decent people. With a ...
  1. #241

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesb View Post
    What we need is people not wanting to commit crimes, because they're decent people. With a level of reasonable intelligence it wouldn't be hard to engineer a crime such that you wouldn't be caught and if your only deterrent is fear of punishment then you're setting up for some big problems. Is the only reason that you don't commit crimes because you might be caught and punished?
    No, it is because I'm a decent and moral person, but at a young age, kids are developing their own moral values, so punishment and fear are a key aspect of that. Look at religion? Why do people think they should be good people? One of the reasons is due to the discussions of not getting into heaven etc... ie. punishment. Fear is a key part of any moral system.

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    JJonas's Avatar
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    From Twitter

    Glad to see that greenwich council will work to evict any council-housed #londonriots #greenwichriots participants. Will other councils?

  3. #243

    MK-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No, it is because I'm a decent and moral person, but at a young age, kids are developing their own moral values, so punishment and fear are a key aspect of that. Look at religion? Why do people think they should be good people? One of the reasons is due to the discussions of not getting into heaven etc... ie. punishment. Fear is a key part of any moral system.
    Again, I wholeheartedly agree. Our school motto (or whatever it is), is "the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom"
    agree or disagree, that is what we're on about.
    if (exaggerated example) the government said anybody caught looting will have their hands chopped off, then after the third or fourth person gets their hand lopped off, the other scum thinking of doing it will think "hang on, do i want to risk it".
    obviously im not saying chop hands off, but if the fear of punishment is there, it will deter

  4. #244

    featured_spectre's Avatar
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    That system works in Saudi. I remember once my friend went to Saudi and when it was prayer time in the middle of the day, the shops were left open, not because they trusted people, but because they knew nobody would steal as they would lose a hand.

    Fine we dont need a system that extreme, but we need a system that works as a proper deterrant, not just sitting in a cushy cell with a better meal that the serving soldiers get and a playstation 3 etc. They need a matress, toilet, sink, 3 basic rations a day, 1 hour exercise a day and be locked up for the rest of the day. Only form of entertainment would be books. Beyond that prisoners deserve no more. Same goes for Juvie as well. Shove the rioters in Juvie or Prison with that sort of system, and I bet they will think twice!

  5. #245
    steve_nfi's Avatar
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    Unfortunately kids today seem to think the only way to gain respect is through fear, at the end of a knife or gun.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by email by an anonymous police officer in Surrey (to the BBC)
    The UK will continue to be under siege from the mindless violence until something changes in the way we police this country. When my granddad was a police officer in the 1940s he was feared by those who broke laws. He acted professionally and upheld the law, but did not have worry about trial by media if used force to restore order. Every use of force by a police officer in the UK has to be documented and justified. Many officers will not use the force necessary to restore order as they fear for their jobs and liberty! The interview with the two teenage girls on Monday shows this really well where they state 'we are showing the police we can do what we want!' The yobs and looters need something to fear [the police] or they will continue their reign of terror on the law abiding community.
    Just read this on BBC news website - says it all really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_nfi View Post
    Unfortunately kids today seem to think the only way to gain respect is through fear, at the end of a knife or gun.
    Was on one of those cop shows last night a bloke arguing with police that the knife they had taken from his mate in a nightclub was actually his knife. Police promptly nicked him. I was like WTF, is he really that stupid? But them what will happen to him, sweet FA all bet. Personally I think if you are caught with an offensive weapon on a night out you should get the same punishment as conspiracy to murder - as lets be right about it, what other possible reason is there to carry a knife other than to kill someone with it?


    Personally I would never carry a knife anywhere, other than in a tool box in my car on the way to a job. I would take it out of the car after use. This is because I, rightly or not, believe I would be punished for carrying an offensive weapon and punished accordingly.

    IMO punishment does work. My ex mates are all loons now as even when they were caught for doing quite horrendous stuff they were not properly punished - GBH/ABH = a few months in a cushty prison with more luxuries than they were used to at home. Obviously they don't want to be back in jail, but they are not that bothered tbh
    Last edited by j17sparky; 10th August 2011 at 12:02 PM.

  8. #248

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  9. Thanks to RabbieBurns from:

    Dos_Box (10th August 2011)

  10. #249

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    Sky now reporting they are making plans to use water cannons. Good about time. Fill them with red dye first though

  11. #250


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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No, it is because I'm a decent and moral person, but at a young age, kids are developing their own moral values, so punishment and fear are a key aspect of that. Look at religion? Why do people think they should be good people? One of the reasons is due to the discussions of not getting into heaven etc... ie. punishment. Fear is a key part of any moral system.
    I was brought up as an atheist, with no corporal punishment in the family. I think it would be fairly safe to say that I had nothing to fear in that respect.

    I'm not saying this would work for everyone, by any stretch, my point is more that saying fear and punishment are key is oversimplifying.

  12. Thanks to jamesb from:

    GrumbleDook (10th August 2011)

  13. #251

    featured_spectre's Avatar
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    Hello Rioters. Look at your friend, now back to me. Now at your friend, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped using petrol bombs and started using job centre he could potentially be me. Look down, back up. Where are we? You're at an interview with the man your friend could work for. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's an application form to that job you need. Look again. The form is now money. Anything is possible when you get a job and stop looting.

    I'm at my job.

  14. 3 Thanks to featured_spectre:

    Butters (10th August 2011), j17sparky (10th August 2011), MK-2 (10th August 2011)

  15. #252

    TechMonkey's Avatar
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    Playing devils advocate, if the councils evict them they will end up in another councils jurisdiction. Do we expect every council to turn them away? Start forming shanty towns on the outskirts of town?

    & talking about prisons, studies have shown that countries with freer (less harsh) prisons actually have a lower rate of re-offence. Though spinning again that could be because they all ready have a low crime rate/high moral level.

    I do think the police should have taken a stronger stance from the second night though. But they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they show up prepared for trouble they are accused of inciting it themselves, if they try and police carefully they are told they are being soft. Same as happened with the student protests. Personally I blame a lot of it on Americanisation. Kids going around saying stick it to the "Feds", complain about how harsh & unfair the police are, when in fact they are taking their experience from US films, tv, music and events. We have had a tradition of policing by consent where as in US they have policed by force. If the population, even a section of it as we have now, disregard that consent what are the police to do?

    I think the funniest thing is how there was such an uproar about kettling and now everyone (generally, not specific to here) is demanding rubber bullets and the full force of the military to be used.

  16. Thanks to TechMonkey from:

    simpsonj (10th August 2011)

  17. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechMonkey View Post
    I think the funniest thing is how there was such an uproar about kettling and now everyone (generally, not specific to here) is demanding rubber bullets and the full force of the military to be used.
    Because 99% of the students were there to protest, only a small minority rioted. Here it is the other way round with 99% of them simply there to riot and thieve.

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    MK-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    Because 99% of the students were there to protest, only a small minority rioted. Here it is the other way round with 99% of them simply there to riot and thieve.
    is that 99% as in 99.999999999999% and rounded up? because to me the only reason you are walking down a street in manchester with your face covered up is because you are there to riot and thieve.

  20. Thanks to MK-2 from:

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