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General Chat Thread, The new iPad advert......seriously?! in General; I don't get why people blame Apple for manipulating the population of the world to sell their goods. That's the ...
  1. #91

    localzuk's Avatar
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    I don't get why people blame Apple for manipulating the population of the world to sell their goods. That's the whole point of marketing, and in fact the whole point of capitalism. We don't live in a meritocracy.

    There are dozens of products which no-longer exist even though at their launch they were better than their competitors but were poorly marketted. Creative could have had the MP3 market in its pocket right now, if they'd realised what people wanted - but they didn't, so their MP3 players disappeared and Apple took over.

    Betamax? Mini-disc? HD-DVD? The list goes on.

    Don't blame the companies for succeeding, blame the companies that failed. Also, blame the population of the world for buying stuff which we as geeks see as 'the same as X'. Not everyone sees that.

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  3. #92

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    And what is so wrong with actually accepting the way things are. Not everyone preffers to walk around in a bubble of self delusion, this may well be my main irritation with the ads and the whole culture it promotes.
    Ah ... and there we have it yet again ... the implied assumption that because someone does not hate Apple they are in "a bubble of self-delusion". I would say that the attitude of some members and the hatred they show is a similar bubble.

    A child thinks its magic... what kind of neglectful parents or defective kids result in this, how low are they aiming.
    And we have already had the points about what else a child might think is magic. And to allow a child to be excited by something is neglectful? Wow ... I must remember that in future.

    What is wrong of a little healthy dislike of various vendors, nowhere did I say that I did not have a chunk of dislike for most of the vendors that you list (the ones I have dealt with/heard of). Why should I just lie back and accept the preditory behaviour of these companies. It is everyone simply accepting this as the status quo that is the reason they can get away with as much as they do.

    Welcome to reality, if they treat you badly complain and look for better solutions, if you don't you are propogating the problem by rewarding and accepting their behaviour.
    Welcome to reality. Your refusal to accept what you term as "predatory behaviour", at the moment, is coming close to refusal to accept any positive facts about the kit and how it can be used. The list of vendors were those that I should have a similar amount of vitriol should I take a similar stance to you ... but reality says that most of us have to work with these companies anyway. That doesn't mean you don't challenge them. Some you win and some you lose ... sometimes it depends on how badly you feel about whether your integrity needs to be kept intact or whether your are doing it out of blind hatred.

    There are plenty of other places to go Mac-bashing if you want ... as far as I am concerned EG has always been about trying to be constructive and helpful. As far as Apple goes, or people trying to run Apple kit in schools ... this is now a joke as there is a core group of members which will use the site to attack Apple. Would you want to come here to talk about it with the amount of animosity against Macs and Apple kit?

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  5. #93

    aerospacemango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    For most people (in this forum) they are a device manufactured and sold by a company they don't like ... so it gets slated.

    At the moment they are the best device in their bracket. Excluding the flash-based stuff on the web they have a pretty good range of tools to be used, and it is nice to have something challenging the naff flash stuff which is out there, which so many people have slated in the past. In a number of schools it is not just engaging the children, but it is making staff think very differently about how they do things with technology, from blogging to the use of images, from IWBs to the use of personal devices.

    If schools are any good (and if we are too) then we can learn a heck of a lot of lessons from this stage so that when other devices are of the same standard then we should be able to use them in similar ways.

    Of course there will be downsides to them (implementation / storage / etc) but I would rather improvise and adapt than just slag them off for no reason other than the excuse of "They are more expensive than I like so they are bad" or "They are advertised and marketed very well by a company with a track history of pushy marketing" or "I don't trust them because they are not as open as they claim to be".

    I agree with pretty much everything the ad says ... but also appreciate that it has a healthy dose of marketing spin, the same way that I understand that Lynx is not the answer to getting all sad, lonely nerds laid!
    OMG!

    NOOOoooooooo!!!

    That'll mean I've just wasted £150 on boxes of Lynx!

    To go off-topic for a sec.....does anyone want to buy 2 years supply of a well known deodorant?


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    Wasn't the start of this thread in relation to the advert NOT the product. There are a number of adverts I hate but it doesn't mean I wont buy/use their products if it the best solution for my problem. I really dont like the Apple advert as it doesn't tell me anything about the product, it just tells me I should have one. The Lynx advert at least tries to put an amusing slant on things and it's obvious it's in jest. The apple advert doesn't do that but links in to peoples need to have things other people have, not because they need it but because it's a status thing. And buying their products for a status point of view is very expensive...and how much influence does marketing have on people when you read about them selling kindeys so they can buy the latest product? (This is another topic completely and I'm not solely blaming apple on this)

    BUT I do have an iPod touch because it was the only thing at the time which did everything I wanted.

  7. #95

    aerospacemango's Avatar
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    Anyhoo....back ON topic....

    Having spent a week playing with the iPad2, for "evaluation purposes", I thoroughly respect the build quality, the OS and pretty much everything else about it. However, I just cannot see how Apple can market this as "All things to ALL men".

    The point about Doctors being able to use them bedside? How long do we think that will last? A junior Doctor, into his 92nd hour of the week, is quite likely to leave it behind....with all the attendant problems that that will cause......No more leaving laptops on trains, it'll be confidential info on an iPad that's left.

    As for it being more expensive, well it's bound to be....it IS Apple after all!!!

  8. #96
    Gibbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I don't get why people blame Apple for manipulating the population of the world to sell their goods. That's the whole point of marketing, and in fact the whole point of capitalism. We don't live in a meritocracy.
    For me its more the attitude of the fanboys than Apple themselves. Its like the PS3 and XBOX, why does a product need "soldiers" to do the battle with the company's rivals?

  9. #97

    nephilim's Avatar
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    Arthur you histories sites only date back to 1998. I know it was in 1997 as I started high school then, and I remember the IT teacher showing it to us and telling us it cost him nearly £600. At the time it had a whopping 128mb on there and to be blunt it was rubbish!

    Also Apple in the grand scheme of things may not have marketed the iPhone as the first and the best during their adverts etc, but the shops did (apple stores as well as O2, and then when other operators got the phone they did as well.)

    Nobody said good design isnt important, but look where "good design" got them. A phone that doesnt work unless you have a cover round the edge because the human will earth the phone! Then when it was noted, what did they do, they said something to the tune of "oh its a design feature so you have one of our splended covers for the phone"

    As for 3G and 3GS, yes it was rubbish in the past before Apple, no denying this, but they said they were the first to incorporate it into the phone and that they essentially invented mobile internet as we know it today (not in those words but again, apple stores saying this).

    As for the windows phones, yes they were frustrating, they still are, and the innovation was that they took touch interface to a new level, which apple then ripped and rebranded. Fine apple may well have made it the first touch phone to use the finger rather than stylus (I am not too sure on this one), but to say its a whole new technology, designed by them, well sorry to burst their bubble, but tablet laptops were there long before which allowed people to use the finger, all they did was condense the technology.

  10. #98

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibbo View Post
    For me its more the attitude of the fanboys than Apple themselves. Its like the PS3 and XBOX, why does a product need "soldiers" to do the battle with the company's rivals?
    And those 'soldiers' also exist (in their equivalence) in Google and Microsoft. Apple just do it better, and other companies are often accused of copying them ... but the reality (as pointed out by many others) is that Apple have picked up how to do it well from many others. MS do have evangelists for many areas ... but rather than doing a big song and dance (who now has pictures of the Ballmer dance in their heads?) many do small but productive work to build things up. Live@Edu would not be as popular as it is without this.

    Those members who have helped out at BETT (other tradeshows are available) may have seen the almost evangelical build up some exhibitors generate before the show doors open ... and that does include the chanting, high 5s, group hugs.

    All companies look for an edge.

    And not all Apple users / admins are the religiously fervent devotees that some believe them to be (in fact, few are IME) and anyone who has come across the Mac-Supporters list on the JISC mailing list can vouch for the amount of time people will spend picking apart the problems and issues ... but usually to try and put back together what is practical and usable.

  11. #99
    Pottsey's Avatar
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    Theblacksheep said “ipad2 gpu can do under 10 million triangles per sec.
    xbox/ps3 can do over 280, and they are old.

    The Ipad2 GPU is a tile based Renderer with deferred rendering which works in a very different way to the Xbox or PS3. Basically it only renders what you can see, that means when you are in a scene with high overdraw like a city scene the xbox/ps3 GPU has to render about x2 to x6 or more more then what the Ipad 2 GPU needs to do for the same scene. The Ipad2 has less raw power but it’s vastly more efficient. Or another way to look at it, the more complicated the screen the less work the Ipad 2GPU needs to do in comparison to the Xbox or PS3.

    The Ipad 2 GPU can also do FSAA for free with pretty much a zero performance hit unlike the xbox/ps3 GPU. In short we are starting to get console level graphics on the Ipad 2.
    Last edited by Pottsey; 21st June 2011 at 09:20 AM.

  12. #100

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerospacemango View Post
    The point about Doctors being able to use them bedside? How long do we think that will last? A junior Doctor, into his 92nd hour of the week, is quite likely to leave it behind....with all the attendant problems that that will cause......No more leaving laptops on trains, it'll be confidential info on an iPad that's left.
    So because people might not use them right, they shouldn't be used at all? That's a poor argument to say the least. Easily solved with one tool - a shoulder harness for the iPad. I have one here for one of the old Fujitsu-Siemens tablets.

    Not to mention, security shouldn't be an issue, so long as it is implemented correctly - PIN codes etc...

  13. #101

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    As for the windows phones, yes they were frustrating, they still are, and the innovation was that they took touch interface to a new level, which apple then ripped and rebranded. Fine apple may well have made it the first touch phone to use the finger rather than stylus (I am not too sure on this one), but to say its a whole new technology, designed by them, well sorry to burst their bubble, but tablet laptops were there long before which allowed people to use the finger, all they did was condense the technology.
    And this is where the blurring of specific technologies and functionality causes problems for different manufacturers, ending in patent claims and counter claims.

    You also get into some of the issues MS has had previously. If a company buys out another company, or gains exclusive rights to a technology to such an extent that you could say they 'own' the other company, and then says "here is a wonderful thing which *we* have put in a phone, in this way, for the first time" ... are they right or wrong? The use of "we" is a marketing tool. That is why you get guest speakers on stage at Apple, MS, Google, OSS events whilst a main keynote / announcement is on ... to give this impression of "we" ... and so when some statements are made, they are technically correct, contractually correct (at that time and subject to challenges around patents, etc) and open to a lot of interpretation afterwards.

    It makes it confusing when the tech media report one aspect of the announcements, which then get quoted elsewhere and then the resulting articles are used as reference points further down the line. But that is nothing new ... we have had that in journalism and research for years ... it just travels faster now.

    Is this the fault of Apple? They certainly make the most of it, because it suits their needs to promote and sell products, but they are not the only people to do this, whether in the tech arena or elsewhere. I honestly don't think any Apple user on here or administrator of Apple kit is unaware of this, or unwilling to accept that companies poach tech from others and push it as their own.

  14. #102

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    So because people might not use them right, they shouldn't be used at all? That's a poor argument to say the least. Easily solved with one tool - a shoulder harness for the iPad. I have one here for one of the old Fujitsu-Siemens tablets.

    Not to mention, security shouldn't be an issue, so long as it is implemented correctly - PIN codes etc...
    And this is where I side with those poking at Apple. The lockdown options for iPads and iPhones are still not suitable for an enterprise environment without significant effort and cost. They are still not regarded as suitable (from my last conversation with CESG) for IL3 data and above unless it is is hosted and accessed remotely over a secure VPN, even within a secure wireless environment.

    To try and get the management of iPads / iPod Touches sorted in schools is resulting in a lot problems with some people. Docking stations are all for large class-sets right now, limited documented solutions for how people do it and the introduction of Lion / iOS5 is also going to make it more interesting. When MS bring out a system they usually have plenty of documentation and many partners who have been working on systems as early adopters. That is why we had the wonderful event in Reading just before Windows 7 came out and had several members who had been early adopters who could tell you how they managed to get Windows 7 out into their schools. this is blindly ignored on so many levels by Apple. If they are saying it can be used in a hospital (which it can) then tell everyone how it was done! When OS X was hitting the floor in its early days (10.0, 10.1 and 10.2) we had MacOSX Labs which had significant support from Apple. This was a fantastic resource (MacEnterprise, its replacement, is still there and well worth a visit) but there just doesn't seem to be the same dedication to help people work things through.

    @russdev and I have seen this over the years when we have interviewed Apple staff. In the last year they did BETT, the European Education Manager, when asked about community support for Macs in schools, categorically told us that he expects schools to go to Apple Solution Experts for the answers as he didn't think schools needed tech support anymore as it could be bought in when required (to shocked looks of some of his colleagues). I have spoken with many ASEs over the years (many of them lurkers on here) who get frustrated in return as they are the people coming up with a lot of the answers after they get the basics from Apple.

    Some could say that this is just the same as MS using a partner to produce a case study, but at least MS are pro-active in the education and enterprise market to get people to share things. Instead Apple are saying to ASEs to prepare solutions and then sell it to schools and businesses ... and Apple also expect them to give stuff and advice away for free? It is worth saying that the relationship is better in the US, but the district model of support can sometimes make it difficult for sharing. That is why it has been good to see some folk from the US be active with sharing Apple advice.

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    synaesthesia's Avatar
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    I think some of us, myself included feel obliged to help "protect the niaive" for want of a better phrase. People will often blindly buy things on the strength of an advertisment; that's great for the retailer and the manufacturer, not so good for the person that doesn't actually know what they are getting.
    That's where we come in. We have the power and knowledge (and google!) to help explain, help find out what they want and see if they are getting the value and function they need.

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  17. #104

    aerospacemango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by synaesthesia View Post
    I think some of us, myself included feel obliged to help "protect the niaive" for want of a better phrase. People will often blindly buy things on the strength of an advertisment; that's great for the retailer and the manufacturer, not so good for the person that doesn't actually know what they are getting.
    That's where we come in. We have the power and knowledge (and google!)AND EDUGEEK to help explain, help find out what they want and see if they are getting the value and function they need.
    At least i think that's what you meant LOL!!!

  18. #105

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    And this is where I side with those poking at Apple. The lockdown options for iPads and iPhones are still not suitable for an enterprise environment without significant effort and cost. They are still not regarded as suitable (from my last conversation with CESG) for IL3 data and above unless it is is hosted and accessed remotely over a secure VPN, even within a secure wireless environment.
    On the scale where they're available for health services, I'd fully expect them to be sold as part of a larger solution by a systems integrator/solutions provider, rather than an NHS Trust buying them and then shoehorning them into a job.

    So, I'd expect a company that provides a records system for a trust would develop a secure application for the iPad etc... So, they'd develop it in such a way that it did provide the security needed, rather than trying to make use of whatever primitive admin tools exist from Apple. Just like most of our software packages in schools have their own security mechanisms built in, rather than leveraging whatever Windows has on offer.

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