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General Chat Thread, Wage Gap in General; Originally Posted by korova_blue I'd argue that footballers are possibly the most deserving! They are earning that money purely on ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by korova_blue View Post
    I'd argue that footballers are possibly the most deserving! They are earning that money purely on talent and ability which they have to display consistently and publicly - definitely not a case of the 'old boys network' getting them into a cushy job or being able to hide behind anyone. If the club is making loads of money then the players are entitled to their share. Celebs on the other hand....
    I'd argue you're smoking something! :P "pure talent and ability". Think you forget who's in the england team currently (cough swiss game cough).

    Steve

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  3. #17

    TechMonkey's Avatar
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    I don't agree with their wages but don't forget footballers have a very limited career life. In theory they should be putting away the extras for when their knees finally give in, or they hit that age limit where they are no longer seen as viable. I forget which one but I heard a Liverpool player now owns a large section of Liverpool as he made investments and bought up property from his earnings. Wasn't extravagant while a footballer but now is making a very decent wage on the work he has done since. He is also a very decent guy apparently, helping out those that need it, so that may be the difference.

    Going slightly OT, some I was talking to was also saying that the issue is that these young kids are given managers whose sole purpose is to get them what they want & do what they want so they get used to having everything and anything. It's the old adage, you keep the talent happy. So why would they think there isn't anything they can't do or have (race that sports car on a public road, have that 'bit' on the side without anyone knowing, etc), they push the limits, testing their boundaries & then the problems hit. The clubs should be looking after them better. & don't get me started on a football club as business!!! Can anyone name a club that is profitable? & I mean on the balance sheets, day to day not for the owner by selling it later as an investment

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    Footballers and athletes don't work hard? As a junior sportsman I trained with some of these folk at the academies ... I was doing 30+ hours of training a week on top of my school work, paper round / saturday job ... and they were doing 45+ (and most of them came out with better qualifications than me too).

    Only a handful of sports folk earn to the top money, because they are at the top of their level, whether it be through technical skills, perseverance or simple hard work. A smaller handful get there from being in the right place at the right time ... and being used to generate additional income via marketing, etc.

    When you think that some CEOs are in place in their forties, because they started after getting out of Uni at 21/22 ... and then they have another 20-30 years of top earning ... think about the little lad who starts out in football at 8, is at their peak for 10 years and it is all over by 40. Whilst I don't agree with how many of them live their life, or make use of their money, I would never say that they haven't worked hard.

    The smart folk ensure that they do stuff in their spare time ... some will study, some will run other businesses, some will start preparing to go into other trades (coaching, presenting, medical, etc) but you will always get those who have access to money and resources and don't use it positively.

    The same could be said of some regarded as celebrities ... the overnight success which is seen for certain comedians ... well, that is usually overnight after having spent years working the circuits. If you are talking celebs who are famous for being famous ... that is another matter.

    Don't knock sports folk, actors, musicians, writers, etc ... just because you don't see the full picture it doesn't mean they haven't worked!
    Last edited by GrumbleDook; 7th June 2011 at 01:49 PM.

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  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechMonkey View Post
    I don't agree with their wages but don't forget footballers have a very limited career life. In theory they should be putting away the extras for when their knees finally give in, or they hit that age limit where they are no longer seen as viable. I forget which one but I heard a Liverpool player now owns a large section of Liverpool as he made investments and bought up property from his earnings. Wasn't extravagant while a footballer but now is making a very decent wage on the work he has done since. He is also a very decent guy apparently, helping out those that need it, so that may be the difference.

    Going slightly OT, some I was talking to was also saying that the issue is that these young kids are given managers whose sole purpose is to get them what they want & do what they want so they get used to having everything and anything. It's the old adage, you keep the talent happy. So why would they think there isn't anything they can't do or have (race that sports car on a public road, have that 'bit' on the side without anyone knowing, etc), they push the limits, testing their boundaries & then the problems hit. The clubs should be looking after them better. & don't get me started on a football club as business!!! Can anyone name a club that is profitable? & I mean on the balance sheets, day to day not for the owner by selling it later as an investment
    That would be Robbie "GOD" Fowler.

    One of my footballing heroes whilst growing up, but I dislike the fact that he, along with many others, through buying up so much housing have helped create this stupid housing bubble. A disservice to the working class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    The first .com millionaire (i forget his name, but he sold adspace at 1 pixel in size on a webpage, for £10 a piece) and sold out his page (800x600) before the year was up...he did that whilst at school!!
    Are you thinking of Alex Tew who created the Million Dollar Homepage in 2005? If so, I'm sure there were plenty of .com millionaire's before he did this.

  8. #21

    featured_spectre's Avatar
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    I missed a vital word...."young"...lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    People do work hard for their money, and regardless of wage, footballers lose 60% of it in tax and national insurance.
    i bet with a clever accountant they pay much much less than that and probably less than the average person

  10. #23
    bodminman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sted View Post
    i bet with a clever accountant they pay much much less than that and probably less than the average person
    I used to work for a well known national accountancy firm in the North West that looked after the tax affairs of most of the LFC team and it's amazing how many ways there are to avoid paying the full amount/or even any tax if you have to money to pay for expert advice!

  11. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by bodminman View Post
    I used to work for a well known national accountancy firm in the North West that looked after the tax affairs of most of the LFC team and it's amazing how many ways there are to avoid paying the full amount/or even any tax if you have to money to pay for expert advice!
    Most of the tricks used by sports folk have come from other areas, and sports management groups have made the most of them.

    These range from simple things ... such as setting up a ltd company. The company gets the reported £100k a week but the footballer gets a smaller cut as a salary. Many assets (homes, cars, etc) are owned by the company and not the person. The company is registered overseas and does not take a profit as all monies are invested in growth (including buying up housing, art, etc). The player uses their small salary to make charitable donations. Food is regarded as an expense when 'prescribed' by a dietician / nutritionalist. The clothes are part of their work-wear, even fashion items as it relates to the brand marketing (if the clothes weren't part payment for sponsorship, that is).

    There are hundreds more little things which can cut down the tax bill, and build up an investment portfolio to cover the post-football years.

  12. #25

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    An old timer writes...

    I believe some of this came about because of definite government policies intended to make us a more competitive economy. In 1979 one of the first things the incoming Conservative government did was to abolish the tax allowance for businesses taking on apprentices. Some of the younger Edugeekers may not know this, but an apprenticeship used to last for five years with a thorough grounding, including college training, in a particular discipline such as engineering, plumbing and the like. Now we 'import' these skills.

    The first recession devastated manufacturing in the north of England, leading to very high levels of unemployment and thus helping to create some of the conditions for a flexible labour market, such as driving competition for jobs thus allowing companies to lower wages. One government minister, Nicholas Ridley, went so far as to say that as manufacturing jobs declined, so the service sector would step in to take up the slack. Certain other laws were brought into effect such as employees having to have worked for a company for more than two years before being guaranteed any job security (this has since been changed). It was not unheard of for people to be laid off just short of their two years and asked to reapply for their jobs. How I read this is that is that "flexible" means low paid jobs, very little job security, and jobs could be moved to areas where the population was able or willing to undercut those currently in employment. Strong unions were seen as an impediment to that. The phrase "You should be thankful you have a job" was much in evidence at the time.

    Other help afforded employers, especially those such as Rupert Murdoch in his move to Wapping, was the abolition of secondary picketing. Murdoch used the purchasing power of Sky, and a nudge from Alan Sugar, to buy up the rights to live football on television, thus paving the way to the current Premier League set up, the ratcheting up of the money available to clubs to spend, and is directly responsible for the astronomical salaries paid to some of today's footballers. To give him credit, he realized early on that in order to drive the take up of Sky subscription packages he had to make football exclusively his domain and remove competition. I have to hold my hand up here and say that I take the full Sky Sports package.

    Another factor was the belief that by selling off council houses we would become a "home owning democracy" and thus become natural Conservative voters. This allowed people on diminishing wages to be able to buy their council house at greatly reduced rates. This may have worked had the money raised been used to build more affordable housing, but councils were forbidden from doing this and had to use the money to reduce the council tax. As is obvious now, the shortage of affordable housing has led to increased demand for suitable rented accommodation, which is not being met in full. Peoples' debt burdens are increasing in order to either find the deposit on a new home, or the surety on rented accommodation. Private builders sit on huge land banks, only building to maximize profit.

    Privatisation banged another nail into the fair pay coffin. Contracting out whole sectors to private companies once again led to lower wages and, in the case of hospital cleaners, directly to a rise in infections contracted by patients in hospitals. Single Status, initially intended to raise the salaries of female employees to the levels of their male colleagues doing similar tasks, has now been turned on its head resulting in massive cuts to the salaries of male workers in order to bring them into line with those of the female workforce.

    I think so much damage was done to our economy and national well-being during the last 30 years that I fear we will never recover, but I'm getting old.
    Last edited by beeswax; 7th June 2011 at 02:27 PM.

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    maniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodminman View Post
    At the end of the day a football club is a business. Businesses need income. Players of the top rated variety (I doubt I'd really include any England players in this groups after Saturdays game) generate huge amount of income for these clubs/businesses. So if they're making money of a plater then why shouldn't they get a slice?
    No they don't, they generate bugger all really in comparison to the amount of money the club receives from TV rights etc. and with about half the premiership clubs being massively in debt there's really no justification for the exceptional wages. If you can find it on-line I really suggest watching the documentory Lord Sugar Tackles Football. In it he explains the financial situation the game is in, and examines how it's come to be like this including how players have ended up earning so much and the exceptional transfer fees etc.

    I think it's quite sad that the jobs under the median are very skilled jobs like Mechanical engineers, tool makers, sheet metal workers etc. where as pretty much all the job above the median are in service industries like accountancy, solicitors etc. Just goes to show the world we live in I suppose.

    Mike.
    Last edited by maniac; 7th June 2011 at 02:45 PM.

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    elsiegee40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve21 View Post
    I'd argue you're smoking something! :P "pure talent and ability". Think you forget who's in the england team currently (cough swiss game cough).

    Steve
    I was at that match with my family... OMG... they played like they were already on their holidays

    Generally though I agree with others the time, commitment and skill required by professional sports people, musicians, etc to be at the top of their profession is huge...

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    Quote Originally Posted by beeswax View Post
    Another factor was the belief that by selling off council houses we would become a "home owning democracy" and thus become natural Conservative voters. This allowed people on diminishing wages to be able to buy their council house at greatly reduced rates. This may have worked had the money raised been used to build more affordable housing, but councils were forbidden from doing this and had to use the money to reduce the council tax. As is obvious now, the shortage of affordable housing has led to increased demand for suitable rented accommodation, which is not being met in full. Peoples' debt burdens are increasing in order to either find the deposit on a new home, or the surety on rented accommodation. Private builders sit on huge land banks, only building to maximize profit.
    I have argued this point for years. The "Right-to-Buy" was the destruction of the old idea of community. Once it was cheaper to have a mortgage, rather than pay rent, people were sucked into the housing market. Once that happened, and you discover that your council house, valued at say £10000, is actually now "worth" £110,000, you are going to sell and move.

    This is what happened to the estate that I was brought up on. People fled for bigger, cheaper houses, because they were told that's what they should do. Therefore, new people came in, and the spirit was lost. Street parties for a royal occasion? In 1977, my mum and dad were involved in OUR street party. It was one amongst thousands....How many were there in April?

    Thatcherism destroyed this country, and the last Labour government hardly covered themselves in glory either, but at least they tried to improve things for the working class.

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    bodminman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maniac View Post
    No they don't, they generate bugger all really in comparison to the amount of money the club receives from TV rights etc. and with about half the premiership clubs being massively in debt there's really no justification for the exceptional wages. If you can find it on-line I really suggest watching the documentory Lord Sugar Tackles Football. In it he explains the financial situation the game is in, and examines how it's come to be like this including how players have ended up earning so much and the exceptional transfer fees etc.

    I think it's quite sad that the jobs under the median are very skilled jobs like Mechanical engineers, tool makers, sheet metal workers etc. where as pretty much all the job above the median are in service industries like accountancy, solicitors etc. Just goes to show the world we live in I suppose.

    Mike.
    I'm not saying that the clubs are goldmines but at the end of the day a high profile player (take Bald Rooney for example) will generate millions for MUFC through image rights and shirt sales etc etc etc. Whether or not the club is in debt has absolutely nothing to do with him. The wages he's paid will probably easily we recouped with all the merchandise sold here and around the world. However, it's most likely the transfer fees that are really hard to get back unless you get players like Ronaldo before they reach their prime.

  18. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by bodminman View Post
    I'm not saying that the clubs are goldmines but at the end of the day a high profile player (take Bald Rooney for example) will generate millions for MUFC through image rights and shirt sales etc etc etc. Whether or not the club is in debt has absolutely nothing to do with him. The wages he's paid will probably easily we recouped with all the merchandise sold here and around the world. However, it's most likely the transfer fees that are really hard to get back unless you get players like Ronaldo before they reach their prime.
    Watch the documentory if you can find it, you'll be surprised it's not as clear cut as that. It's not the most riviting watch, but it does make you realise how dis-proportionate the wages are to the clubs income in a lot of cases, although it's not just that issue the dis-proportionate wages have a hell of a lot to do with it. Some clubs are not just millions in debt, they are hundreds of millions in debt and should by rights be bankrupt by now, but oh no we can't let that happen can we. Of course you know who indirectly picks up the bill for this at the end of the day . . . . .

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