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General Chat Thread, Why you should vote YES to AV on Thursday: in General; Indeed, if people choose not to exercise their vote for whatever reason they lose the right really to comment on ...
  1. #121
    Disease's Avatar
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    Indeed, if people choose not to exercise their vote for whatever reason they lose the right really to comment on the outcome as they chose (freedoms) not to take part.

    What you end up with generally is a load of people kicking up about this and that and when you ask them if they voted they say no. It's a case of put up or shut up really.

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    Yes they can. What we have is the *freedom* to vote and that necessarily means the freedom to choose not to vote (for whatever reason).

    By your logic people who vote for the party that gets in have no right to complain as "it's their fault", but as individuals we have many more subjects to have opinions on than the number of candidates at any election.
    I'm with everyone else here - if you don't vote - you can't complain - end of.. - People that sit on the fence are basically "observing" what happens - not participating and cannot particiapte unless they take part by VOTING! It's not exactly difficult to get your arse to a polling station sometime between 7am and 10pm - put a cross in a box and walk out...

    If you vote then you have a say - in the case of AV - a YES or a NO - the NO's won .. I voted for "YES" - I think it was the wrong outcome but that's my opinion - hence why I voted.

    I fully believe that voting should be compulsary - with an option of a "Don't Know" or "None of the Above" box - these can then be taken into account and we would probably get a better picture of what we, as a people, want..

    Yes it is your choice not to vote, but by doing so you cannot then object to the result - that isn't very democratic (In fact i'd go out on a limb and say it's probably the exact opposite!)

    /RANT

  3. #123

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disease View Post
    Indeed, if people choose not to exercise their vote for whatever reason they lose the right really to comment on the outcome as they chose (freedoms) not to take part.

    What you end up with generally is a load of people kicking up about this and that and when you ask them if they voted they say no. It's a case of put up or shut up really.
    Nonsense.
    What if you if none of the parties at the election represent your views?
    What if you don't really want FPTP or AV voting systems but want PR?

    Should you vote as a form of damage limitation? Under your way you would have to vote for something you didn't believe in to qualify for an opinion, then if they complained then I envisage your answer would be "Well you voted for it"

  4. #124

    teejay's Avatar
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    What if you if none of the parties at the election represent your views? You stand in the election yourself, or spoil your ballot paper as a protest.
    What if you don't really want FPTP or AV voting systems but want PR? Then you go and vote No as you don't want AV. The vote was on whether or not we want AV, it really had nothing to do with our current FPTP system or PR.

  5. Thanks to teejay from:

    BenABF (9th May 2011)

  6. #125

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    You stand in the election yourself
    Fair point.
    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    or spoil your ballot paper as a protest.
    So don't vote then, according to the rules above I still aren't entitled to an opinion.

  7. #126
    mthomas08's Avatar
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    Surely if you dont vote against a new building being built ruining your window view you have pretty much no right to complain when its built?

  8. #127

    Gatt's Avatar
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    I'm against spoiling since it doesn't get counted and is a waste of a vote (Thought at least they made an effort to get themselves to a polling station!) - hence Why I suggested the "Don't Know" (for Referendums) and the "None Of The Above" (For elections) boxes and to make it compulsary to vote - same as it is for the Census..

  9. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    So don't vote then, according to the rules above I still aren't entitled to an opinion.
    It entitles you to an opinion as you got off your backside and registered your indignation at not having a suitable option to vote for.

  10. #129

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthomas08 View Post
    Surely if you dont vote against a new building being built ruining your window view you have pretty much no right to complain when its built?
    Ok to further your analogy, a building is being built and you can vote whether the positioning will block out your sun in the morning or the afternoon.
    When you are sitting in the dark will you think "This is ok as I voted for this"

  11. #130


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatt View Post
    I fully believe that voting should be compulsary - with an option of a "Don't Know" or "None of the Above" box - these can then be taken into account and we would probably get a better picture of what we, as a people, want..
    Well at least you get to the real issue rather than confusing and conflating voting with freedom of speech. No right to "complain" - what would be the proposal for that - cut out their tongue's, go round to their houses and smash up their keyboards!

    So compulsory voting is the real issue when people say things like "people who don't vote have no right to complain" are really advocating compulsory voting (and if they aren't, then they are very confused about voting and freedom of speech).
    Yes it is your choice not to vote, but by doing so you cannot then object to the result - that isn't very democratic (In fact i'd go out on a limb and say it's probably the exact opposite!)

    /RANT
    Sure you can. Even with a supposedly simple yes/no issue like AV, I might still rightly object to the result: I don't want, FPTP or AV, I actually want proportional representation. So why should I have voted and why if I didn't should I lose my right to complain that we don't have PR? That would be right proper barmy.

    And that's the rub about compulsory voting - the limited choices. This is highlighted nicely in places where there are a rather limited number of candidates (say, one) but the ruling parties point to the 'vote' and say "ah, yes but we have the support of 97.8% of the population". We might not be limited to one candidate but I doubt that there is anyone apart from the candidates themselves who can vote for someone who's views match their own 100%. I might find that the candidate who I have most in common with (as a % of subject views) has one view that I find so repugnant I could never vote for them. Which leaves me with what - no choice but to vote for someone who's views in the main I don't agree with?

  12. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatt View Post
    I'm against spoiling since it doesn't get counted and is a waste of a vote (Thought at least they made an effort to get themselves to a polling station!) - hence Why I suggested the "Don't Know" (for Referendums) and the "None Of The Above" (For elections) boxes and to make it compulsary to vote - same as it is for the Census..
    They do get counted, they have to record the number of spoiled ballot papers. I agree the biggest improvement to democracy in this country would be a 'none of the above' option, especially if that option wins then it forces a by election with none of the previous candidates able to stand.

  13. Thanks to teejay from:

    sted (9th May 2011)

  14. #132

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    the biggest improvement to democracy in this country would be a 'none of the above' option
    Seconded. I could get onboard with that.

  15. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    Ok to further your analogy, a building is being built and you can vote whether the positioning will block out your sun in the morning or the afternoon.
    When you are sitting in the dark will you think "This is ok as I voted for this"
    Then again thats your job to get all the facts before you vote. If you dont know what your voting for then dont complain.

  16. #134

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthomas08 View Post
    Then again thats your job to get all the facts before you vote. If you dont know what your voting for then dont complain.
    But you didn't answer my question. Both options are bad for you but is it ok because you voted for it?

  17. #135

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    teejay has it right: if you didn't want AV then you vote No - this is not a yes vote for FPTP as that wasnt in there at all. It has just confused the issue.
    You should vote - a lot of people went through a great deal to get the right to vote.
    Still don't get that if AV is so bad, why do the political parties use it to elect their leaders?

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