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General Chat Thread, Why you should vote YES to AV on Thursday: in General; Originally Posted by sparkeh Unfortunately this appears to be a common trend and the fault of the Yes campaign's amazing ...
  1. #106

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    Unfortunately this appears to be a common trend and the fault of the Yes campaign's amazing failure to explain how AV works
    Quite of few of my friends who voted No did understand the system ... lots of people did and it is not really fair to say that if you voted No then you didn't understand it. If anything, most of the folk I know who voted No did so because they understood all too well the problems going to AV could cause and they felt it was not worth swapping them for the problems we have with FPTP.

    I wish people wouldn't just treat others who have differing opinions (for often very valid and well thought out reasons) as stupid, selfish, wrong or even evil. This applies to both sides and also for so many other points of discussion across a wide range of areas.

    I do have to admit that I am still gutted that Bill & Ted *still* haven't solved all the world's problems.

  2. #107
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    I'd rather keep FPTP for a few more years until a better system such as PR is introduced,
    Problem is, they will use this as an excuse for the next 20 years to not bother with commons reform. "The British people love FPTP" which is not what the ballot said at all. If we do return to two party politics then it will be even longer before reform is brought up again.
    the assumption that if you don't agree with a position then it's obviously because you're too thick
    I think it's bad that a few yes2av supporters are saying this now. The Yes campaign was bloody awful and didn't really explain to voters why a change was needed. It also scored a few own goals by ignoring rightwing supporters of AV like UKIP up until the last minute and thought that using well off actors and celebs was a good idea.

    At the same time, the no2av supporters kept saying that the system was too complicated which is also pretty insulting on the average guys IQ considering it's not, so both sides are guilty of that.
    They used some very emotive advertising that often outright lied and pushed the hatred of the Lib Dems as a reason to not support AV, when it wouldn't just be the Lib Dems that would have gained under AV. Problem is is that they had the resources to push this message into the minds of undecided voters. They did this extremely well.

    Ideally the ballot should have been like it was in New Zealand when they went down this path in the 90s. They had a referendum that purely asked if FPTP should be kept or should be replaced. The result was that FPTP should be scrapped and then a follow up referendum was carried out the following year to pick the system to replace it. AV finished 3rd out of 4.
    Electoral reform in New Zealand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  3. #108

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    I'm sorry if you read my post to mean that ALL people who voted no only did so because they didnt understand it - that wasnt my intention at all and I have amended my posts to make my position clearer.

    However, I do object to the implication that I, or anyone, has said that people who voted No were stupid,selfish or evil.

    As for whether they were wrong - yes of course I think that IMO they were wrong - I hold the opposite view so that would be a given - can't see what you are getting at there.

    The comment about waiting for PR - who is ever going to allow that through? No one, more's the pity

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  5. #109

    nephilim's Avatar
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    I am lost by all of the Acronyms. Whilst I consider myself well versed in politics, acronyms play havok with me. I guess that FPTP is First Past The Post, and AV is Alternative Vote, but what about PR?

    As for the voting systems, the cost alone of the AV system per election would be massive compared to now. The government (all parties) are banging on about saving money and cutting spending, yet they throw this out which would cost 250m which could pay for 3500 GPs (which coincidentally, are having jobs cut and are being moved to "super surgeries").

    The system we have now in my opinion whilst not the fairest, is the best system available for us to have at the minute. You vote once, its counted, job done...I am not ignorant, I understand the AV system, but it is not a system that would suit us. Also using the FPTP system, NONE of the party leaders would be in charge of their respective parties, so how is that fair?

  6. #110

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    PR - Proportional Representation

  7. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Quite of few of my friends who voted No did understand the system ... lots of people did and it is not really fair to say that if you voted No then you didn't understand it. If anything, most of the folk I know who voted No did so because they understood all too well the problems going to AV could cause and they felt it was not worth swapping them for the problems we have with FPTP.

    I wish people wouldn't just treat others who have differing opinions (for often very valid and well thought out reasons) as stupid, selfish, wrong or even evil. This applies to both sides and also for so many other points of discussion across a wide range of areas.

    I do have to admit that I am still gutted that Bill & Ted *still* haven't solved all the world's problems.
    Thanks for using a quote of mine that doesn't represent your point.
    At no point did I say that everyone who voted No did so because they didn't understand it or were 'stupid, selfish, wrong or even evil'.
    I resent that accusation and believe an apology is in order for casting me in that light.

    I do stand by my point that there is a trend of people who voted No because they didn't understand it as the Yes campaign did terrible job of putting their argument across.

  8. #112
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    Maybe people voted NO simply because their politics are black-and-white. Take me for example, if AV was introduced I would vote Conservative and no other. The Lib Dems and Labour played a very nasty smear campaign in my area last year so there is absolutely no way I'd give them my second choice vote.

  9. #113
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    If only the Yes campaign had used the analogy of a series of the X Factor with an extra rule that if you get 50% of the votes cast you're the winner and that's it. Could have got Cowell to do the party political broadcast for it.

  10. #114
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    I will admit here right here and now.. I actually couldnt decide what to vote for. I see the gains of voting yes but I also some times believe that change is not always a good thing. My view though, so in the end I didnt vote at all.

  11. #115
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    Once again the majority of the country has spoken, so can all the AV lovers please crawl back under the stone from where they came

    Bravo for democracy.

  12. #116

    nephilim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disease View Post
    Once again the majority of the country has spoken, so can all the AV lovers please crawl back under the stone from where they came

    Bravo for democracy.
    Correction, Majority of those that chose to vote. A surprising amount of people I know didnt vote because they didnt understand the system, or understood it and didnt like it, so didnt vote.

  13. Thanks to nephilim from:

    sparkeh (9th May 2011)

  14. #117
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    Sounds like me, to be honest though if I did vote it would have been no because I am not too in to the idea of the new system BUT some times I like to take a risk with new ideas. Thats how I feel though, it feels like I am doing it to take the RISK of it, so for me would have been no.

  15. #118
    Disease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    Correction, Majority of those that chose to vote. A surprising amount of people I know didnt vote because they didnt understand the system, or understood it and didnt like it, so didnt vote.
    People who chose not to vote should never be factored in, if they chose not to participate that is their own fault, they chose not to take part in democracy. They can not complain after the fact for whatever happens.

  16. 5 Thanks to Disease:

    BenABF (9th May 2011), Dos_Box (9th May 2011), Gatt (9th May 2011), mthomas08 (9th May 2011), nephilim (9th May 2011)

  17. #119


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    Quote Originally Posted by Disease View Post
    People who chose not to vote should never be factored in, if they chose not to participate that is their own fault, they chose not to take part in democracy. They can not complain after the fact for whatever happens.
    Yes they can. What we have is the *freedom* to vote and that necessarily means the freedom to choose not to vote (for whatever reason).

    By your logic people who vote for the party that gets in have no right to complain as "it's their fault", but as individuals we have many more subjects to have opinions on than the number of candidates at any election.

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    sparkeh (9th May 2011)

  19. #120
    mthomas08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disease View Post
    People who chose not to vote should never be factored in, if they chose not to participate that is their own fault, they chose not to take part in democracy. They can not complain after the fact for whatever happens.
    Must say, I do agree with this part. I didnt vote and I wouldnt of complained either way, I would have voted NO. I didnt vote on the last election either, I would have voted for Cameron anyway.. I didnt vote then because I wasnt happy with any of the choices and was frankly too lazy to care. I wont complain about it tomorrow and wont complain about it next month. Then again thats my opinion.

    If people do not vote because they simply dont understand their choices then surely thats their job to do their research and find out what its about, surely you dont sign off for car insurance without reading it? then complain when you wreck the car and expect a temp car free of charge?

    Common sense to me really..

  20. Thanks to mthomas08 from:

    Disease (9th May 2011)

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