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General Chat Thread, Why you should vote YES to AV on Thursday: in General; Originally Posted by MK-2 If you want it based on reforming this country, then surely that means making sure every ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2 View Post
    If you want it based on reforming this country, then surely that means making sure every party has an equal chance of winning an election, whether you agree with their views or not? By saying you want AV because the BNP don't means you aren't making an unbiased choice. If everyone said "I want AV to kick Labour/Tory, etc" then it is more out of spite you vote for it.
    I knew I should have appended a bet on how long it would take someone to link those.

    That isn't the reason for me wanting AV but if the system has a fringe party that gains seats through minority wins worried then it proves that it is a better system. Currently every party does not have an equal chance. Refering back to that article:
    The three BNP councillors elected for the first time in Burnley in 2002 had an average vote share of 28.1%. This means that 71.9% of voters voted against these councillors, yet they were still elected.
    Slightly OT I think the BNP is a good thing as it shows we are a democracy, I think they should win some seats as it would shock the voters into mobilising and it would show what the BNP really stand for.

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    DrCheese's Avatar
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    Slightly OT I think the BNP is a good thing as it shows we are a democracy, I think they should win some seats as it would shock the voters into mobilising and it would show what the BNP really stand for.
    Is what I've always thought. If you shutdown people's views instantly then they just go underground and will eventually boil over into something horrible. It's far better to have them out in the open and show just how bad they really are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robz View Post
    So 'Red Ed' got into power using the AV system? seems a good argument for voting NO....
    As did 'Shiny head Cameron' =p

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechMonkey View Post
    Or you could see it as one step on the road to reform. In fact if the difference is so marginal why not vote yes?

    It also depends on what you call marginal. That a party will have to get a real majority before gaining a seat? That alone will settle a lot of issues so well worth it.
    Or you could see it as one step on the road to reform. - I don't see a need for reform to a PR or AV system, FPTP for me is fine. The reform I want to see is a 'none of the above' option.
    In fact if the difference is so marginal why not vote yes? - Because I want to vote No?
    It also depends on what you call marginal. That a party will have to get a real majority before gaining a seat? That alone will settle a lot of issues so well worth it - As I said, sit down and work it out rather than listening to the Yes/No campaigns. In our country, with two main parties with polarised voting patterns and a number of small parties (yes I include Lib Dems in this) it makes such a negligable difference that it won't have the affect you are after.

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    Robz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PICNIC View Post
    As did 'Shiny head Cameron' =p
    Touché, but which one is it telling us to use such an important referendum to get back at our government? Anyone willing to ruin our country for a bit of childish revenge isn't worth listening to IMHO

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrCheese View Post
    Is what I've always thought. If you shutdown people's views instantly then they just go underground and will eventually boil over into something horrible. It's far better to have them out in the open and show just how bad they really are.
    Agreed, the problem is you need a country that truly upholds the principle of freedom of speech, the UK is no longer such a country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    Agreed, the problem is you need a country that truly upholds the principle of freedom of speech, the UK is no longer such a country.
    hear hear! I can't agree more, we have become a country where the minority are protected and the majority persecuted, I know of no other country that bans their country's flag from prisons (union jack and st georges cross) but allows all others!

    nor do I see France bowing to the EU and saying "sure take control of our country", they tell them where to get off...

    /(small)rant

    back on topic.... I'll be voting NO for the simple reason we have no need to change and such a change shouldn't be tried whilst we are still a crippled nation
    Last edited by Robz; 4th May 2011 at 11:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    Or you could see it as one step on the road to reform. - I don't see a need for reform to a PR or AV system, FPTP for me is fine. The reform I want to see is a 'none of the above' option.
    In fact if the difference is so marginal why not vote yes? - Because I want to vote No?
    It also depends on what you call marginal. That a party will have to get a real majority before gaining a seat? That alone will settle a lot of issues so well worth it - As I said, sit down and work it out rather than listening to the Yes/No campaigns. In our country, with two main parties with polarised voting patterns and a number of small parties (yes I include Lib Dems in this) it makes such a negligable difference that it won't have the affect you are after.
    So you do want a reform? A none of the above is a reform. No reform means no hope of that at all.
    So the marginality isn't what is making you vote no, you just want to say no.
    I have. I thought about it long and hard. If you want us to stay as only 2 main parties with polarised views and a huge switch every so many years then that is fine and that is what we shall keep with the status quo. Well in fact we shall get more of the same, shoddy coalitions with a huge player ignoring the smaller party as voting gets fragmented across more and more smaller parties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechMonkey View Post
    So you do want a reform? A none of the above is a reform. No reform means no hope of that at all.
    So the marginality isn't what is making you vote no, you just want to say no.
    I have. I thought about it long and hard. If you want us to stay as only 2 main parties with polarised views and a huge switch every so many years then that is fine and that is what we shall keep with the status quo. Well in fact we shall get more of the same, shoddy coalitions with a huge player ignoring the smaller party as voting gets fragmented across more and more smaller parties.
    Claiming voting no the AV is going to affect future reform is rubbish. I would argue that voting no to AV will give us a biggeer chance of reform as we have rejected that system and now they need to figure out something we will accept.
    Marginatlity is one of the main reasons, from looking at it in detail AV will make no effective change to the structure of our parliament, won't change our 2 party structure and won't make MP's any more accountable. It will probably make 5-10 seats more marginal, that's it. A much greater effect will be caused by the planned reduction in the number of MP's and changes in constituency boundaries.
    So your suggesting that a small party should have more influence in a coalition than the main party?

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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    Claiming voting no the AV is going to affect future reform is rubbish. I would argue that voting no to AV will give us a biggeer chance of reform as we have rejected that system and now they need to figure out something we will accept.
    Marginatlity is one of the main reasons, from looking at it in detail AV will make no effective change to the structure of our parliament, won't change our 2 party structure and won't make MP's any more accountable. It will probably make 5-10 seats more marginal, that's it. A much greater effect will be caused by the planned reduction in the number of MP's and changes in constituency boundaries.
    So your suggesting that a small party should have more influence in a coalition than the main party?
    Which is why we need PR
    Don't get why voting NO will make them seek out a solution we will accept? Surely voting NO will just make them think that we are happy with things as they are?
    If AV is so bad then why do the parties use it to elect their leader?

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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    Claiming voting no the AV is going to affect future reform is rubbish. I would argue that voting no to AV will give us a biggeer chance of reform as we have rejected that system and now they need to figure out something we will accept.
    Marginatlity is one of the main reasons, from looking at it in detail AV will make no effective change to the structure of our parliament, won't change our 2 party structure and won't make MP's any more accountable. It will probably make 5-10 seats more marginal, that's it. A much greater effect will be caused by the planned reduction in the number of MP's and changes in constituency boundaries.
    So your suggesting that a small party should have more influence in a coalition than the main party?
    I'm sorry but if you think a no vote won't be spun to loudly proclaim that the public have spoken and loudly said they do not want any changes then you are naive. It will be taken as the majority want FPTP, that what we have is what the people want and we will not get another chance for a long, long time.
    AV won't change anything except how we vote. But it is a small step to making people think differently, to start voting properly and a hope that future governments will have to listen more. Yes it is a hope, but a stronger one that with what we have now.
    The studies I have seen have said AV could effect around 50% of safe seats. That's around 150! It could well go further than that if people change from their current tactical voting.
    I'm not sure if it will make them more accountable but if an MP has to get a full 50% then I'm sure they will think long and hard about what they do & how it will effect them. Although that does mean voters will have to hold the MP accountable rather than always vote for that nice conservative man or voting for that man that I always do or even I like his name I'll vote for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechMonkey View Post
    I'm sorry but if you think a no vote won't be spun to loudly proclaim that the public have spoken and loudly said they do not want any changes then you are naive. .
    But on the flipside, why will voting yes make them think "we now have AV, lets now push for something else" rather than just "the public have spoken, they now have the voting system they want".

    Neither result will probably end in major reform past just using AV, and to think anything other than THAT is naive

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    Because by a majority saying they are open to change you are opening up the way for reform. I'm not saying overnight we will get all the reform we want but it opens the way. There is more chance of multiple small changes to get where we want then saying no to everything except the huge change you want.

    Not saying it was the right way to do it. I've said elsewhere there should have been a referendum asking "Do you want voting reform?" to get a true result of what the country wants. That would have meant less politicising would be possible and if that was confirmed we can sort out the nitty gritty of what system we want however we like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechMonkey View Post
    The studies I have seen have said AV could effect around 50% of safe seats. That's around 150! It could well go further than that if people change from their current tactical voting.
    Please look at who comissioned and paid for these studies, they're just spin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    Please look at who comissioned and paid for these studies, they're just spin.
    Funnily enough one of them was on the No2AV myth busting section of their website. I was about to link but they have now changed the text. Funny that.

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