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General Chat Thread, Why you should vote YES to AV on Thursday: in General; Originally Posted by DrCheese eh, even so I think you'll find a lot of people only vote for a party ...
  1. #31

    teejay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrCheese View Post
    eh, even so I think you'll find a lot of people only vote for a party because they "don't want the other guys in power" at the very least, AV will eliminate that. Sure you'll still have the die hards who only ever vote for one party but that's not a reason to deny those who want to vote for another party the ability to do so without accidentally voting in a party they hate.
    No it won't, if you want the MP out, your only realistic option is to vote for the strongest opposing candidate as first choice under AV as anything else you are risking the MP getting through in the first round, so there is no difference in tactical voting.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatt View Post

    I find it wrong to be spending, what £250m?, on not only this referendum but also on a possible change to the system when people are struggling to find work, and keep a roof over their families heads and be able to provide food.. THAT is a far more pressing issue that this money could be spent on..
    To quote from the "A-Z of rubbish arguments from NO2AV" I posted earlier

    X is for eXpensive (!)

    AV will cost £250m! Except £82m of that is apparently the cost of holding the referendum, which would be incurred even if there is a No vote. And £130m of that is on buying voter counting machines. They donít use them in Australia, which uses AV, but DO use them in America, which uses FPTP.

  3. #33

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    The vote counter machines are meant to allow for a similar number of staff to be able to complete the count in a similar amount of time. Without the machines the choices would be to allow for more time to complete the count, increase the number of staff involved, allow for more time due to human error / miscounts or any combination of these.

    The pressure to have an answer before lunchtime on the Friday after a general election is partly put there by the media / public, but mainly be the world markets. This means we cannot allow for longer time (even though that is still a risk due to the predicted rise in the number of recounts per stage) so we either pay for more staff or a new system to measure the votes. Purely electronic is out, so we have to have counting machines ...

    £130m is the suggested figure for the machines, and there has been money put aside to cover the costs of the next election which should (with inflation) be about that amount. However, there has been no indication yet of any other costs or possible increase of existing costs due to the change in the system. Speaking with one returns officer a fortnight ago they said that would look forward to having machines in to do the work, but they seriously worry about what happens when there is a problem ... the problems with shortages of ballot papers, people not having time to vote, etc are just some of the examples which need to be sorted either way. The introduction of a new system will need some serious training and management ... and there seems to be significant scepticism if this is possible.

    So, if you count for the figures of the referendum, the costs of machines, the costs of marketing / training / planning, the legal costs for challenges ... then yes, I could quite easily see it rise to £250m and even go passed it, but yes, the way the No campaign has stated some facts (and they are facts) is a typical political truth ... used to say something with a slant in a particular direction. The annoying thing is that to say that it is not going to cost more than it is at the moment, without having completed a full breakdown (and published) seems a tad strange by the Yes campaign.

  4. #34

    beeswax's Avatar
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    Finally, I would like to point out that this "unfair", "discredited", "expensive" system that "doesn't work" is used by their own party to vote in members to the House of Lords, and a variant of the system (which uses multiple rounds of voting) to vote for their leader. Why don't they eat their own dog food and use FPTP themselves if it is so much better?
    The full text of the letter can be found here - Why don't Tories use FPTP to elect their own leader - Letters from Leamington Observer If the Tories used First Past the Post (FPTP) then David Davies would would have been elected leader of the Tory party.

  5. #35

    Hightower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    In the event that my candidate does not score a majority, I would still like my views to be taken into account.
    Now this just doesn't cut it for me. With the current system your views are taken into account, and you were outvoted.

    The AV to me is a bit like that annoying kid at school who used to play a 'best of 3' game of heads or tails with you, then when he lost he would say "nah, it was best of 5" and then "nah, it was best of 7" and so on.

  6. #36

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightower View Post
    Now this just doesn't cut it for me. With the current system your views are taken into account, and you were outvoted.

    The AV to me is a bit like that annoying kid at school who used to play a 'best of 3' game of heads or tails with you, then when he lost he would say "nah, it was best of 5" and then "nah, it was best of 7" and so on.
    Outvoted by a minority... 36.1% of the vote and the Tories are in power.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightower View Post
    Now this just doesn't cut it for me. With the current system your views are taken into account, and you were outvoted.

    The AV to me is a bit like that annoying kid at school who used to play a 'best of 3' game of heads or tails with you, then when he lost he would say "nah, it was best of 5" and then "nah, it was best of 7" and so on.
    It would be more like if you got to sign up to what you wanted to do in PE for the term. If the group you legged it to was full, instead of being told for the next term you will be doing nothing you get to leg it to another group.

  8. #38

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    So the crux of this thread is 'I should vote 'yes' because of what some bloke said on the internet'

  9. #39

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    So the crux of this thread is 'I should vote 'yes' because of what some bloke said on the internet'
    Better than 'because of what some bloke said in the pub'. At least with the internet you can have the process explained using cats!

    YouTube - Is your Cat confused about the referendum on the alternative vote on the 5th May?

  10. #40

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    Now... I don't know politics, but I know what I like.


    And I don't like this... Seems kind of stupid to me. [@Hightower summed it up pretty well.]

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Outvoted by a minority... 36.1% of the vote and the Tories are in power.
    Or, they got the most votes of any party, therefore the most popular, therefore have a right to govern.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    Or, they got the most votes of any party, therefore the most popular, therefore have a right to govern.
    Or everyone votes MRL and they're in charge.


    Is that really what you want?

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Outvoted by a minority... 36.1% of the vote and the Tories are in power.
    Really? Last time I checked it was Nick Clegg who called this referendum.

  14. #44

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    Or, they got the most votes of any party, therefore the most popular, therefore have a right to govern.
    So 73.9% of people get no representation in government!? Minority rule is ok for you then? There is no 'right' to govern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hightower View Post
    Really? Last time I checked it was Nick Clegg who called this referendum.
    Yes, the original referendum idea was to go with a form of PR, but the party which formed the government, ie. the Tories, said no, and made them change it to AV. So, again, the Tories get to use their minority vote position to do what they want.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    Or, they got the most votes of any party, therefore the most popular, therefore have a right to govern.
    But not a majority & not really the most popular. If a party wins with any less than 50% then there is more than half that did NOT want them so they are not the most popular

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