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General Chat Thread, Well said that head. in General; Grumbledook: hopefully this website and the people on it can push the changes quicker and those people in the know ...
  1. #16

    bossman's Avatar
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    Re: Well said that head.

    Grumbledook:
    hopefully this website and the people on it can push the changes quicker and those people in the know could point this out to those who can make changes within the education sector.

    would like to thank all for making my days a little more exciting, Grumbledook not often we agree but via your confirmation of my last post i think we do on this one.

  2. #17
    steve's Avatar
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    Re: Well said that head.

    Looks like the unions and government are talking about this

    Quote Originally Posted by unison spring newsletter

    UNISON is leading the negotiations for a new national pay and conditions framework for School Staff in England.

    This would cover all support and professional staff (excluding teachers) in all schools—community, VA, foundation and trusts in England.We have made progress on this but there have been delays in getting agreement. Recommendations should be going to Jim Knight, the Schools Minister for England, by April. We hope to be able to send out much more information and start consulting with members after Easter.

    Why do we need a National Framework? UNISON members have argued for a number of years now that there is little or no fairness or transparency in the pay structures for school staff.

    There are huge variations in pay for staff doing the same or very similar jobs between different local authorities and even between schools. We also think that the jobs of many school staff including teaching assistants, technicians, administrators and bursars, to name a few,have changed significantly over the past few years. Many staff now have much greater responsibilities either in relation to their work directly with children or in managing and supporting school services, but pay and grading haven’t always kept pace with these changes.

    There is also the fact that already over one-third of schools are self-governing i.e. foundation, VA or trusts, and therefore the staff are directly employed by the school and are not always employed on local authority terms and conditions.

    UNISON believes we need a fair and equitable pay and grading structure that can reflect the jobs done by our members in schools, and which can apply in all types of schools.

    When we are able to consult on new proposals on pay and grading we will need your views. We will send a special newsletter to schools with details and we will want to hear from you and for you to get involved in any branch or local meetings that are held by UNISON on this issue.
    Hopefully they'll not make a mess of it like the current job evaluations.

  3. #18

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: Well said that head.

    The new single pay was a way for trust bill to go forward with out the support unions kicking up arms.

    Idea is that under trust school scheme school could pay really low wages to support staff but if national scheme then they would have to pay a that rate or no one would work for them

    Ideas of various formats are fairly good saw something late last year that came from working group in fact may have done news article on it..

    Russ

  4. #19

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    Re: Well said that head.

    From the speech...


    But while teachers can look back over the past ten years and see the positive changes this government has made, and its continued commitment to education, can we really say the same for school support staff?

    Compared to 1997 we now have twice as many support staff employed in schools, as well as the introduction of relatively new roles such as higher level teaching assistants and cover supervisors, all working alongside teachers to help them and enhance the learning of pupils. Support staff contributed a great deal in 1997, but ten years on it is now as inconceivable to imagine a school without support staff as it always was to imagine a school without teachers.

    So, as teachers have had pay increases significantly above the rate of inflation and contractual changes to reduce their workload, support staff have had their roles enhanced, their contribution increased, but, in most cases, their pay has stayed more or less the same. And why is that?

    I sometimes wonder if these issues are deliberately over complicated, so I’ll say it using the most straightforward language.

    Teachers have national pay and terms and conditions - support staff don’t.

    It’s always been the case, but has now become acutely obvious, that most local authorities have failed support staff for years and years, leaving them at the bottom of the pay scale with scant regard for their skills, abilities and expertise. We have a conference motion later this week about local authorities and schools who are deliberately ignoring the national advice on the deployment and employment of cover supervisors and higher level teaching assistants, which is yet another example that, in this case, devolution doesn’t work.

    It’s time things changed.

    Two years ago Ruth Kelly addressed this conference and said for the first time that the government would have to consider this issue. Two years is a long time in politics, but it’s even longer when you’re in a job that you love, which makes a massive difference, and which is vital in helping to raise standards, but are paid so poorly that you can barely afford to carry on doing it.

    I met Alan Johnson two weeks ago and did not hold back in expressing our members’ views about the current position. The fact that support staff are predominantly female should have put this issue at the top of a Labour Government’s agenda, especially one committed to equality. Alan is coming to speak to you on Wednesday, and is expecting us to ask the question we always ask education secretaries - when is there going to be a national pay scale for support staff? I’m sure you will be interested in his reply.

  5. #20

    webman's Avatar
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    Re: Well said that head.

    Hear hear!! :P

  6. #21
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    Re: Well said that head.

    Me, I'd trade money for respect anyday. I've done my time in my industry, more than most of the teachers I have ever worked with have done in theirs; all I want is people to understand that I know what I'm talking about and to respect that. I'd even stay on my current salary for a guarantee on the above rather than move onto a national scheme.

  7. #22

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    Re: Well said that head.

    Ravening_Wolf: I take it you are close to retiring age by the sounds of it and pretty much fed up to boot. If your not please forgive me but you should be, talking like that.

    I go to work to pay bills which by the way are going up far faster than my pay. The teachers have had 25 admin duties taken from them and dumped onto us and they get a pay rise whereupon we don't and we have taken on more than 25 tasks. We should have a level playing field in schools where everyone is equal and not looked down upon by the teaching staff.

    Respect is earnt and not given freely by teachers as they don't even respect their own professional colleagues, all to often i am caught in the middle of a power struggle by various little cliches within the teaching staff.
    Not all teachers are this way inclined but a good few of them are because they are just bigger little kid's who have never even seen industry because they couldn't hack it in the real world, most would have been sacked for misrepresentation as they don't seem to be able to function unless someone else is doing the hard work for them.

    Ravening_Wolf: don't mean to be nasty or callous but have been on this planet too long to be pushed around by over zealous biggots who because they have a degree and a teachers certificate, one of which i have and the other would take me a year to gain, think they can intimidate other people within the school by looking and talking down to them.

  8. #23
    Ravening_Wolf's Avatar
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    Re: Well said that head.

    Quote Originally Posted by bossman
    Ravening_Wolf: I take it you are close to retiring age by the sounds of it and pretty much fed up to boot. If your not please forgive me but you should be, talking like that.
    I'm only 28 but I get what you saying! I guess I'm just fed up of being employed as a "manager" but being denied the opportunity to "manage". In my experience, my current employer is the best achieving academically, but also the worst to work at (this is my third school).

    I really do think that anyone thinking of becoming a teacher should be forced to do three years in the industry of their subject before being allowed to teach. Anyone interested in a Number 10 petition to that effect?

  9. #24

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    Re: Well said that head.

    You can count me in on that Ravening_Wolf and with respect i feel exactly the same as you do but i am nearly 50 and supposed to be SMT within the school so i keep getting told but my salary does not reflect that.

  10. #25
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    Re: Well said that head.

    How about this:

    We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to change teacher training to include 3 years in the industry of the teacher's subject prior to qualification

    To better prepare students for their working lives, we strongly believe that the training of secondary school teachers should include a period of three years working in the industry of their specialist subject. Such experience would give teachers a better grasp of the unique challenges facing their students in the working environment and allow students to draw from their teachers' own practical knowledge. Schools as a whole would also benefit from bringing industry-standard practices into the day-to-day running of their establishments.


    Any suggestions or amendments before submission?

  11. #26

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    Re: Well said that head.

    Respect is the key to all of this ... one ever so slight problem ... almost a chicken and egg thing really.

    At what point do we acknowledge that even though we may eventually get the respect of our teaching colleagues we still have the struggle of students not having respect for *any* staff, never mind just us.

    I would agree that experience outside of the academic environment is good for bringing on skills where you can earn respect quickly ... and without sounding like an old fart I believe that National Service is a possible candidate.

    Ever wonder why there was the push for so many schools to have links with CCFs?

    And I'm not even old enough to qualify as a TOG yet either!

  12. #27

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    Re: Well said that head.

    @rav

    I suppose it'll weed out those who can't

    I'm not sure how relevant it will be when a teacher has been teaching for 10 years or more.

  13. #28

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    Re: Well said that head.

    Sounds good to me Ravening_Wolf!

    Several months later we'll get the reply from Uncle Tony saying it's a complex issue blah blah blah not going to happen etc etc

  14. #29
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    Re: Well said that head.

    @ITWombat and all other interested parties.

    How about additional 6-month "sabbaticals" in industry for all teachers every 5-10 years (for those who can hack the job of teaching for that long!)?

  15. #30

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    Re: Well said that head.

    (reads webman's post ... considers some smart put downs ... fights the urge to respond to the bait .... skin starting to turn green ... shape of body changing ... tries to get out warning that you wouldn't like me when I'm angry ... finally the monster appears and walks towards webman)

    I don't have to take that from you ... I can take it from Miss Piggy ...

    (looks down ... realises the transformation has not quite worked)

    Kermit the frog? Kermit the bloody frog? People aren't going to be scared of Kermit the frog! I need to get a better imagination!

    (wanders off to ask Yoda how he manages to kick but even though someone has a hand shoved up his back)

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