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General Chat Thread, Teachers TV to close on April 29th! in General; Originally Posted by IT_Guy Anyone know where I would find the actual legal information relating to this? Am I really ...
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    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IT_Guy View Post
    Anyone know where I would find the actual legal information relating to this? Am I really 'legally responsible' for 'everything' on my servers? How many years am I looking at if a teacher uploads the latest lady gaga track to their dropbox!
    This is where policies come in. You have two basic approaches to most things in school, such as copyright, data protection, etc ... you can deal with it purely by technology, lock things down, audit everything, review all the audit logs each and every day ... or there are rigorous policies telling staff what they can and can't do, along with consequences if they fail to follow the policies. In reality it is somewhere in the middle though ... the school is responsible and in all likelihood you are the person delegated with the technical part of that ... and if the school relies purely on a technical solution then the buck is stopping with you ... another reason why folk should look to make sure that there are adequate policies within the school.

    Ignorance is not an excuse in the eyes of the law, only a mitigating factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    This is where policies come in. You have two basic approaches to most things in school, such as copyright, data protection, etc ... you can deal with it purely by technology, lock things down, audit everything, review all the audit logs each and every day ... or there are rigorous policies telling staff what they can and can't do, along with consequences if they fail to follow the policies. In reality it is somewhere in the middle though ... the school is responsible and in all likelihood you are the person delegated with the technical part of that ... and if the school relies purely on a technical solution then the buck is stopping with you ... another reason why folk should look to make sure that there are adequate policies within the school.

    Ignorance is not an excuse in the eyes of the law, only a mitigating factor.
    My schools policies aren't 'Law', localzuk stated 'in the eyes of the law', I'm just looking for the 'Law' - not having much luck so far.

    I've found lots of info on Copyright 'Fair dealing' and whats allowed and plenty on data protection but nothing to suggest that I'm responsible for another adults actions - as you state their ignorance is no excuse - and surely it shouldn't pass the buck onto me!

    The bottom line is that I don't fancy setting myself up as the school thought police, its such a cliche!

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    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    In the eyes of the law there are rare mentions of named roles with legal responsibilities. Some are evident such as a driver, owner of a dangerous dog, and within a company / school there is the SIRO. However you will find that many others are enshrined in case law ... such as the custody officer in a police station having responsibility for detainees under their care. These are usually backed up with stringent working practices and code of conduct. These can be as binding as legal structures and can incur hefty fines as they act as a substitute for legal acts. Take football ... someone getting a fight on the pitch could technically be dealt with as assault but is usually left to the governing body to deal with. The Press Complaints Commission will deal with journalists and papers ...

    What schools (and other companies / organisations) are then left with is where responsibility is apportioned.

    The conversations about where the buck stops, the role of policies, about ensuring Leadership / Manglement do not leave you in the mire ... these have been covered many times before and the ability for folk to stand up for things will vary from school to school, but if Manglement expect you to deal with it, and put nothing else in place, then don't be surprised if the smelly stuff lands on your desk.

    It happens with a number of other areas too ... some schools have terrible Child Protection Officers who leave it all down to form tutors to deal with ... others have diabolic behaviour policies and rely on the classroom teacher to deal with everything with no support from Manglement (does that remind anyone of the recent strike up north) ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    In the eyes of the law there are rare mentions of named roles with legal responsibilities. Some are evident such as a driver, owner of a dangerous dog, and within a company / school there is the SIRO. However you will find that many others are enshrined in case law ... such as the custody officer in a police station having responsibility for detainees under their care. These are usually backed up with stringent working practices and code of conduct. These can be as binding as legal structures and can incur hefty fines as they act as a substitute for legal acts. Take football ... someone getting a fight on the pitch could technically be dealt with as assault but is usually left to the governing body to deal with. The Press Complaints Commission will deal with journalists and papers ...

    What schools (and other companies / organisations) are then left with is where responsibility is apportioned.

    The conversations about where the buck stops, the role of policies, about ensuring Leadership / Manglement do not leave you in the mire ... these have been covered many times before and the ability for folk to stand up for things will vary from school to school, but if Manglement expect you to deal with it, and put nothing else in place, then don't be surprised if the smelly stuff lands on your desk.

    It happens with a number of other areas too ... some schools have terrible Child Protection Officers who leave it all down to form tutors to deal with ... others have diabolic behaviour policies and rely on the classroom teacher to deal with everything with no support from Manglement (does that remind anyone of the recent strike up north) ...
    So the bottom line is that I am not resposible by an act of law but might be responsible by an act of delegation via school policies or procedures. Our school policies state that everyone is responsible for ensuring copyrights on material they use are adhered to.

    Interesting link here by the way: UK Copyright Law Section 8 on Fair dealing is quite interesting.

    I accept I'm responsible - as my Job description states - for the safety and security of the data stored within the school but I draw the line on being the Copyright police - Sony don't pay me enough!

    As for the 'manglement' you refer to, I must admit to being surprised at the employment of people who are unqualified as managers.

    My previous (private sector) employer wouldn't dream of employing a mid-level manager (such as a headmaster) without a MBA and I was pleased to see my son's new headmaster was actually qualified as such.

  5. Thanks to IT_Guy from:

    GrumbleDook (26th April 2011)

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    NPQH is regarded as the relevant qualification for Headship ... the same way I would not demand that all Network Managers are PRINCE2 qualified, an MBA is not always what it is cracked up to be in all environments.

    In reality, MBA is a boon ... but can also be a distraction in the wrong hands. I've seen it limit innovation in some schools because the Head has lacked flexibility ... more of a person thing than the qualification, but it shows that you can't always rely on pieces of paper (even though it is a well-earned one in most cases).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    NPQH is regarded as the relevant qualification for Headship ... the same way I would not demand that all Network Managers are PRINCE2 qualified, an MBA is not always what it is cracked up to be in all environments.).
    My wife was recently made redundant from a secondary school and we are many thousands of pounds richer and the school/taxpayer subsequently poorer due to a basic lack of understanding of employment law by the schools SLT, the expansion of academies is likely to exacerbate these type of issues as they are no longer under the Councils 'wing'.


    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    In reality, MBA is a boon ... but can also be a distraction in the wrong hands. I've seen it limit innovation in some schools because the Head has lacked flexibility ... more of a person thing than the qualification, but it shows that you can't always rely on pieces of paper (even though it is a well-earned one in most cases).
    A Head lacking flexibility sounds like a Leadership rather than a Management issue. Teachers may see themselves as a special case as do most professionals but a Manager has basically the same responsibilities in a factory, on an oil rig or in a school.

  8. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by IT_Guy View Post
    Anyone know where I would find the actual legal information relating to this? Am I really 'legally responsible' for 'everything' on my servers? How many years am I looking at if a teacher uploads the latest lady gaga track to their dropbox!
    The school is liable, not you personally, but if the school ended up in court over it, you'd likely end up in front of a disciplinary for allowing it to happen. When I earlier said 'you' in my post, I was referring to 'the school' not 'you personally'.

    Copyright law is standard, copying a file etc... without copyright permission is an offence. If it is done in a business, it is both the individual who copied it who are at fault, and the business itself. So, there is nothing specific in copyright law saying you must monitor files, but the consequence is that if you don't do it then you are leaving your school open to legal issues should copyright files be on your servers and it end up in court.
    Last edited by localzuk; 27th April 2011 at 08:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Copyright law is standard, copying a file etc... without copyright permission is an offence.....
    Wow, very general statement there, what if I'm copying it for;

    i. Private and research study purposes.
    ii. Performance, copies or lending for educational purposes.
    iii. Criticism and news reporting.
    iv. Incidental inclusion.
    v. Copies and lending by librarians.
    vi. Acts for the purposes of Royal Commissions, statutory enquiries, judicial proceedings and parliamentary purposes.
    vii. Recording of broadcasts for the purposes of listening to, or viewing, at a more convenient time. This is known as “time shifting”.
    viii. Producing a back up copy for personal use of a computer program.
    ix. Playing sound recording for a non profit making organisation, club or society. (Profit making organisations and individuals should obtain a license from PRS for Music.)

    My point is that I'm not a lawyer and I suspect your not either, I'm not going to remove swathes of material being used for non-profit educational purposes so lightly. I have enough to do without setting myself up as the Data police, I'm here to provide a service to the Teaching staff, not hinder them.

    I don't 'own' the Data on the servers, my role is to maintain the safety and security of that Data, not police it. It reminds me of our Caretaker who will claim Health and Safety 'Law' prohibits something when on closer inspection it turns out that firstly, He couldn't be bothered to do it and secondly, he enjoys the power trip on the Teachers.

    If by chance we (as a school) do overstep the rules on Fair Dealing I suspect Sony will send us a letter 'Stating that the infringement must stop' as it suggests in the Copyright Act rather than dragging me off kicking and screaming to the local nick.

    Then again, I've heard stories about Sony.....

  10. #24

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    Ignorance of the law is NOT a defence. Saying you are not a lawyer will never hold up in court!

    i. This is not a catch all allowing everything to be copied at will. It is a limited and specific issue.
    ii. See i.
    iii. Schools are not news outlets.
    iv. This is specific to incidental things. For example, you're filming a performance on your stage and someone's mobile goes off and plays a song which is copyright.
    v. Again, this is very limited to specific instances.
    vi. Not relevant.
    vii. Recording of materials in schools require licenses. See A Guide to Copyright Licensing in Schools
    viii. Personal use is not relevant in a school.
    ix. Non-profits also require a license. See A Guide to Copyright Licensing in Schools

    You don't own data on the servers, but the school does, and you are the primary technical manager of those systems, so are responsible for them.

    As I said, I never implied you were personally responsible for these issues, but your school is. Turning a blind eye simply because you don't know the law will not cover you if you are dragged in front of a disciplinary panel after the school ends up in trouble because of it.

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    A member of slt has just had this - looks like we could be ok.


    This is the final message to confirm that, following the termination of the Teachers TV contract, the Teachers TV website will cease to be available from 29th April, 2011.

    Where can I find Teachers TV videos after the 29th April?
    The Department for Education (DfE) will make all Teachers TV programmes available to distributors on a non-exclusive basis. Any distributor who provides Teachers TV programmes will be required to stream them for free at the point of use. Details of where you can access Teachers TV programmes can be found on the DfE website.

    Where can I find more information about the closure of the Teachers TV website?
    For more information please visit our help pages.

    What do I need to do if I have a viewing log, or links to the Teachers TV website?
    If you have completed a Teachers TV viewing log, or have links to Teachers TV videos on your website or VLE, you need to take action. Please check our help pages for details.

    Thank you very much for your messages of support and kind words about how useful you found the Teachers TV service. Unfortunately, as we approach the end of the service, we may not be able to respond to all of your messages. Thanks again for your support and the very best of luck for the future.

    With very best wishes,

    The Teachers TV team

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Ignorance of the law is NOT a defence. Saying you are not a lawyer will never hold up in court!

    i. This is not a catch all allowing everything to be copied at will. It is a limited and specific issue.
    ii. See i.
    iii. Schools are not news outlets.
    iv. This is specific to incidental things. For example, you're filming a performance on your stage and someone's mobile goes off and plays a song which is copyright.
    v. Again, this is very limited to specific instances.
    vi. Not relevant.
    vii. Recording of materials in schools require licenses. See A Guide to Copyright Licensing in Schools
    viii. Personal use is not relevant in a school.
    ix. Non-profits also require a license. See A Guide to Copyright Licensing in Schools

    You don't own data on the servers, but the school does, and you are the primary technical manager of those systems, so are responsible for them.

    As I said, I never implied you were personally responsible for these issues, but your school is. Turning a blind eye simply because you don't know the law will not cover you if you are dragged in front of a disciplinary panel after the school ends up in trouble because of it.
    I wasn't suggesting that all the exceptions were relevant, I was merely suggesting that your statement that "Copyright law is standard, copying a file etc... without copyright permission is an offence" highlights your ignorance of the Law rather than mine.

  13. #27

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IT_Guy View Post
    I wasn't suggesting that all the exceptions were relevant, I was merely suggesting that your statement that "Copyright law is standard, copying a file etc... without copyright permission is an offence" highlights your ignorance of the Law rather than mine.
    No, it doesn't. It means that you are working from a 'we should believe everything is allowed' point of view, rather than a 'nothing is allowed, except specifically allowed'. The prior approach can lead your school into hot water, whereas the latter will keep it protected from copyright problems.

    You specifically said 'I'm not a lawyer'. This not a defence. Your school cannot and will not be able to stand up in a court and say 'sorry, we didn't realise we were breaking the law, we're not lawyers'. And as I said, I am not specifying that YOU as an individual have to police it, but rather your school does. Simply having a policy stating everyone is required to look after their own copyright requirements will not carry any weight in a legal case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No, it doesn't. It means that you are working from a 'we should believe everything is allowed' point of view, rather than a 'nothing is allowed, except specifically allowed'. The prior approach can lead your school into hot water, whereas the latter will keep it protected from copyright problems.

    You specifically said 'I'm not a lawyer'. This not a defence. Your school cannot and will not be able to stand up in a court and say 'sorry, we didn't realise we were breaking the law, we're not lawyers'. And as I said, I am not specifying that YOU as an individual have to police it, but rather your school does. Simply having a policy stating everyone is required to look after their own copyright requirements will not carry any weight in a legal case.
    OK, when I said "I'm not a lawyer and I suspect your not either" I was trying to be nice, I'll be a little more blunt. I wasn't asking for opinions from random strangers on the internet, I was asking for the Law relating to Copyright. I've found the relevant documents so if you don't mind I'll use them as my reliable source rather than your sweeping generalisation that copying is an offence.

    The fact that I was requesting the source documents would suggest that I fall into the 'checking the facts' point of view rather than either of the points of view you have created.

    Do you look after Health and Safety in your school? You should, you'd fit right in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glennda View Post
    A member of slt has just had this - looks like we could be ok.
    I got the email as well.

    The link on the email goes to a DofE page saying:

    "The Department is making all 3,500 15min Teachers TV programmes and related content freely available on a non-exclusive basis. In return for undertaking to stream the programmes free at the point of use, you would be allowed to use the Teachers TV content commercially in the UK and in other countries. A full copy of the distribution agreement will be available to download.

    Details of where you can access digital versions of the programmes will be published here shortly.

    If you are interested in entering into an agreement with the Department and the National Archives to distribute the Teachers TV archive please contact teachers.tv@EduCation.gsi.gov.uk for more details."

    So as long as someone agrees to distribute/host the programmes its looking good.

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    I think its a pretty decent decision - infact when asking a number of the tech savvy teachers here they all said Youtube is way better - looking back in the web usage logs Teacher TV hasn't had a single visit in the past 6 months.

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