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General Chat Thread, Support Staff or Non-Teaching? in General; Originally Posted by Halfmad Are you a qualified teacher? As in have I a PGCE or completed GTP training? Nope ...
  1. #16

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmad
    Are you a qualified teacher?
    As in have I a PGCE or completed GTP training? Nope ... do I have a number of other qualifications that show I have a history of instructing, coaching, mentoring and shouting at people? Yes ....

    erm ... what was the question again?

    Non-teaching is used in a derogatory manner by a minority of staff but it is often done in a manner to be increase the seperation between roles within a school. It is a power thing ... teachers want to be the lifeblood in a school ... and they are, but the school cannot run anymore without other jobs being done.

    Associate Staff, Admin Staff, Support Staff, Technical Staff, Teaching Staff ... these describe roles within a school ... teaching/non-teaching doesn't ... it takes one role and then lumps everyone else as another group that they can't decide what to do with.

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    Why do you need a discription on your pay slip to say something when the title on your contract says another?
    My contract title is Network Manager, as it happens it's the same on my slip (just checked) but I wouldn't care less if it said non-teaching there. It means nothing. If staff are using it as a derogatory term then frankly it's time for senior management to get involved and put an end to stupid internal politics.

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    “Actually to be a teacher you do have to be qualified.”
    I know you do for the job teacher. But surly you don’t have to be qualified to do some teaching? What about unqualified TA’s? You don’t class them as none teaching. I guess it’s all down to definitions and which LEA you are in.

    I don’t have a problem in my school or the Notts LEA as all staff seem to be treated pretty much equal there is no us and them in the schools I have been in, thankfully. I would hate to be in a school where teachers are above the support staff.




    “it's part of the job and certainly doesn't make me a teacher.”
    Sure I agree it doesn’t make you a teacher but surly your teaching while you training those people so your not fully none teaching staff. Is there a set definition what makes you teaching staff or not thats the same for all LEA’s?

    Not that it really matters as it doesn’t change the job, pay or anything really it’s just a term.

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    Can we re-assign the staff that are ineffective as non-teaching too >

    I'm not that bothered just because I know that we are pretty well appreiciated here, but I think it is a major issue that Councils and Schools need to look at. As Bossman said, many of them still seem to think of support staff as Mum's and Dads or Retired people who pop in to help out every now and then. I don't think there any positions now that would allow this and they need to give the people in the roles the recognition they deserve.

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    This comes down to the same old problem of them and us. It's very difficult to get away from that although not every teacher I might add is guilty of this.

    I originally joined this school as an 'ICT Technician' but I've officially been the 'ICT Systems Manager' now for quite a while. Yet still I am referred to as 'the technician'. The same happened at my last school as well. Some would argue that it's just habit, but where is the respect here? Not that you are 'stuck up' but that you want recognition for your acheivements and your postition within the school.

    If a deputy head applied for the Headteacher's job and got it, I doubt anyone in the school would continue to refer to him as 'Deputy Head'.

    The local councils and LEAs are also to blame. Our LEA have standardised the Job descriptions and pay of 'Technicians'. The level you come in at equates not with the role you play (ie Science, Technology ICT, Food, Reprographics etc) but the level of responsibilty you have. So a reprographics technician could be payed more than an ICT technician if they had a more senior level of responsibilty even though the ICT Technician was a more skilled and knowlegable role.

    All I can say is thank goodness I am in a foundation school which chooses not to follow the standardised revisions by the LEA.

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    True I have jumped down the throat of a maths teacher who called me a technician. I pointed out I've never been one and certainly not one now and if they wanted I'd send a technician to fix their computer, either the science technician with a bottle of acid or the CDT technician with a great big hammer.

    I did it in a joking manner but he knew I was serious..

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmad
    True I have jumped down the throat of a maths teacher who called me a technician. I pointed out I've never been one and certainly not one now and if they wanted I'd send a technician to fix their computer, either the science technician with a bottle of acid or the CDT technician with a great big hammer.

    I did it in a joking manner but he knew I was serious..
    Suprised they didnt throw a fit as a result - here we're all referred to as 'the technician' or 'the techie' - usually to our face, in the same room. (eg, teacher to child 'Go and see the techies about that' *points*)

    The times when I have come up against teaching staff, either reminding them to avoid bad practice or similar it's devolved into a 'how dare you talk to me like that in front of the children/talk to me like that in general' match very fast.

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmad
    Why do you need a discription on your pay slip to say something when the title on your contract says another?
    My contract title is Network Manager, as it happens it's the same on my slip (just checked) but I wouldn't care less if it said non-teaching there. It means nothing. If staff are using it as a derogatory term then frankly it's time for senior management to get involved and put an end to stupid internal politics.
    Teacher is a job title or a generic role (as it can include Heads of Departments too) ... non-teacher is not. Admin staff, support staff are also generic roles.

    I would not expect the certain MPs to have 'cabinet member' and 'non-cabinet member' ... or in the army to have 'soldier' and 'non-soldier' for civilian staff (and there is as big an issue with 'them and us' in the forces ... if not more!)

    And how can senior management deal with it as a derogatory term when the term (used in a derogatory manner or not) is still used by the LA?

    Remember the Spastic Society? They had such an issue they changed their nae to Scope!

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    I have found that not only is "non-teaching" used as a hugely discriminating factor when making management decisions at my school, many staff insist on calling me by my christian name in front of students. I have drummed it in to my technicians time and time again that this is unprofessional and by and large they play by my rules. Unfortunately the superior "teaching staff" pass on their lack of respect for me to the children through simple thoughtless acts like this.

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    Grumbledook: what do you think the headteacher has on his/her payslip?
    If it said teacher then that would probably be a falsehood as i don't think there are any headteachers who actually teach now is there?

    also you wouldn't call anyone from an ethnic black minority "non white" would you?
    (sorry if i have upset or offended anyone from an ethnic background i only wanted to define a little more widely how discriminating this term "non teaching" sounds)

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    I'll be honest, I don't care about the last name thing, and will introduce my self by my full name and if they call me my first name then so be it, I don't _really_ care as I'm used to first name terms in all of my previous jobs.


    and i hate "sir" it makes me feel old.

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    Midget: Sir hehe! you old bugger.

    Maybe to you this is not much but how are we as professionals supposed to get the recognition we so deserve, not by letting an institutionalised bunch of half wits (not all i may add) who think they are so much better than us descriminate against us by using derogatary terms when addressing us to both staff and pupils.

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Midget
    I'll be honest, I don't care about the last name thing, and will introduce my self by my full name and if they call me my first name then so be it, I don't _really_ care as I'm used to first name terms in all of my previous jobs.


    and i hate "sir" it makes me feel old.
    I'm of the old school who believe that something as simple as using "Sir" or "Mr Smith" in front of students helps engender the beginnings of respect in students. Over-familiarity and contempt are not very distant in a classroom when using first names and the kids pick up on it very quickly.

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    @GrumbleDook
    How did the teachers take to having a non-teacher as an assistant head?
    One less place at the trough. They must have loved that

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    Re: Support Staff or Non-Teaching?

    When we re-organised our pastoral system a while back and made "non teachers" head of house effectively, one of our teachers had the nerve to say to governors that parents don't want to talk to monkeys, they want to see a real person.

    I think they got a real bollocking but that's the type of level some staff think we're on.

    Most are respectful but you get the odd pillock.

    HBJB

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