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General Chat Thread, Interview from the how to NOT appoint an ICT Network Manager book! in General; I don't think there is much worse than being turned down for a job because of a false reason/using a ...
  1. #31

    synaesthesia's Avatar
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    I don't think there is much worse than being turned down for a job because of a false reason/using a technicality as an excuse. Each interview *should* be a chance for candidates to see what they need to improve on, what they see employers needing from them. Otherwise it's downright irresponsible; for instance if I was rejected for lack of CC4 experience and went off and completed RM's CC4 MasterClass, to come back to find yet another excuse - I'd be quite upset and still none the wiser as to what I was lacking as a possible employee. I'd certainly rather hear "sorry, we don't think your personality would suit the dynamic of our team" however that's not something you could really tell from an interview. From a trial process maybe but not an hour of sitting in front of a desk with someone.

  2. Thanks to synaesthesia from:

    dwhyte85 (5th December 2010)

  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    What you could do is re-apply, but get the shopping list of CC3/4 functionality and translate it to other systems you have experience of. When you get challenged about this you can always throw back at them that schools are meant to be about skills and concepts, not about single applications!
    Some good advice for anyone else considering applying for a similar position. The irony is that in this case they didn’t even challenge me on lack of CC4 experience and the job description didn’t indicate that CC4 was a prerequisite.

    I certainly won’t be re-applying, if the management team can get the basic concepts of the recruitment process for this position so wrong, there is nothing to inspire me with any confidence in that team.

    I will continue looking though, education is where my heart is!

  4. #33
    dwhyte85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    It happens ... I know that the recent interview panels I have sat on to help schools appoint IT staff would probably not appoint me because I don't have enough recent hands on experience on the technical side, in spite of being like most good geeks, can pick things up darned quickly with very limited support and training.
    It's these silly recruitment checklists that are so binary, it's either tick or no tick, not tick could capably do something but doesn't have direct experience... I still feel that if OP had capable alternative experience, the excuse of CC4 would have been only OK if they recruited someone... as it turns out they didn't and are re-advertising the job! It sounds like giving a part reason for hiding a real reason, that to me isn't feedback, that's stating the obvious... feedback is, didn't communicate well, someone better applied and meant you were pipped at the post or simply, they didn't feel you were the right person for the job.
    Last edited by dwhyte85; 5th December 2010 at 09:15 AM.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by djm968 View Post
    the reason they gave for me being unsuccessful “Did not have enough RM CC4 experience” Your loss guy’s but the sad thing is, it’s the educational sector that ultimately looses. Perfectly good candidates who are keen to get back into the sector, have a vast amount of experience in both the public and private sector, many like me are willing to give up a perfectly good jobs and take a pay cut are completely disregarded and offered a lame excuse like lack of CC4 experience.
    Hasn't anyone told you that experience doesn't count for anything these days in most schools; appears to me management in schools just want Network Managers to be yes men/women! :-|

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    mattx (5th December 2010)

  7. #35

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Interviews are a game, plain and simple. You have to know how to play the game to your best advantage.

    My suggestion for this interview would have been for the op to ask the interview panel a question - 'Do you use any middleware management software on your network like RM CC4?'. That way, even if they didn't bring it up, you can check and make sure and then show how your own experience and knowledge means that you're more than qualified to handle any such bits of software. It would also show that you are interested in knowing what you'd be getting yourself into.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    My suggestion for this interview would have been for the op to ask the interview panel a question - 'Do you use any middleware management software on your network like RM CC4?'
    The Job specification did mention that the School uses RM CC4, they even mentioned it in the interview, why I feel they wasted my time was to then use “lack of CC4 experience” as an excuse.

    They could clearly see from my CV that I had no CC4 experience otherwise I would have mentioned it. Why go to the effort of interviewing someone who you are going eliminate because they do not have a particular skill set, and if that isn’t the “real” reason, be honest and provide constructive feedback!

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    One last Point, the school was shut presumably because other members of staff had difficulties getting in, but I risked my life to get to that Interview it was 75miles away from where I was working. There’s playing the game and there’s playing games with lives, I was not amused..... hence the rant!

  10. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by bgarston View Post
    Hasn't anyone told you that experience doesn't count for anything these days in most schools; appears to me management in schools just want Network Managers to be yes men/women! :-|
    Well put and that just about wraps it up nicely.

  11. #39

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djm968 View Post
    The Job specification did mention that the School uses RM CC4, they even mentioned it in the interview, why I feel they wasted my time was to then use “lack of CC4 experience” as an excuse.

    They could clearly see from my CV that I had no CC4 experience otherwise I would have mentioned it. Why go to the effort of interviewing someone who you are going eliminate because they do not have a particular skill set, and if that isn’t the “real” reason, be honest and provide constructive feedback!
    I think this is a case of 'know your market' a bit. If they mentioned it in their spec, and in the interview, it was then down to you to ensure that you let them know your abilities with relation to CC4 - ie. showing that even without direct CC4 experience, you could have brought it up as something you have indirect experience of through comparable tools.

    The problem schools have is there is a very low amount of IT knowledge, so the best thing they can do is work from checklists based on what they have. So you have to make sure you tick every box, even if they don't bring something up.

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    Just wanted wrap this up by saying thanks for all the feedback and comments.

  13. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattx View Post
    Well put and that just about wraps it up nicely.
    Ours must be quite disappointed then...

  14. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwhyte85 View Post
    I think, if you compared it to a job in the real world. Saying you didn't have VMWare experience for a job but you've other experience with a similar product would still keep you in with a good chance providing you hit the other checkboxes...
    Not for a General IT Manager role maybe but if you were applying for a virtualization specialist where you're going to be managing / migrating to ESX and you said you didn't have VMware experience but had used Hyper-V / Xen / KVM then you wouldn't even get an interview. I have been to Job interviews that involved a written test of VMware ESX and if you haven't got VCP level knowledge you're not getting the job!

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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    Not for a General IT Manager role maybe but if you were applying for a virtualization specialist where you're going to be managing / migrating to ESX and you said you didn't have VMware experience but had used Hyper-V / Xen / KVM then you wouldn't even get an interview. I have been to Job interviews that involved a written test of VMware ESX and if you haven't got VCP level knowledge you're not getting the job!
    That is a specialist role then, and chances are anyone that specialist will have done training or qualifications anyway.

    I've had mickey mouse interviews in my time, with excuses ranging from too young(!), too shy, too overconfident, lacking experience in large scale business, no sales experience the list goes on....

    I've also turned down many jobs, some of which were life-time opportunities for the sake of having a real life, or because i felt the interview was awful.
    One I went to made me do a written test that a 15 year old could complete, then 2 ICT managers came in shirt, no tie, and one had his feet up on the conference desk for the entirely of the interview! When they asked me to drive 50 miles a day, from North of London to work in Peckham for £19k per year, I told em to stuff it.

    From my experience, this problem is because many management in all sectors do not know themselves how to handle ICT. This is not just within the public sector either, many private sector places i've interviewed for the management just seem to have no clue beyond certifications about what is involved in ICT.
    One of the major differences with IT NM's over many other roles, is that we are trusted with the information, handling and many other aspects of a company or school, including overseeing the staff in aspects of ICT usage, but rarely accorded the hierarchy within the school to implement it properly. For this reason alone, I believe it is best to have ICT NM's involved in the management of the school actively, and not just in the title.

  16. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwhyte85 View Post
    My concern is, like mattx has said about quals... the chap suggested CCNA would be needed for the job, the fact we have no cisco equipment other than the cisco router owned by easynet (and managed by) just shows... people don't have a clue what they need when recruiting.

    I could configure one in the environment we have WITHOUT the need for a CCNA... from experience of other hardware and a bit of reading.

    CCNA does one other thing beyond giving you the know how to configure Cisco Equipment. It gives you a rock solid foundation in hardware networking as a whole, covering aspects such as:

    OSI Model and what each layer represents, Network Protocols including Subnet masks and IP addresses, WANS and WAN Protocols, Routing - covering various different types, VLANS, LAN Switching etc.

    So I would look for it even if they were not touching Cisco Hardware, but at the least Comptia N+ would be expected here.

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    Certifications, the next best thing to nepotism!

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