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General Chat Thread, IT qualifications in General; Originally Posted by SpuffMonkey Originally Posted by Lee_K_81 After finishing school I went to a college Blimey - you went ...
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    Re: IT qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by SpuffMonkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee_K_81
    After finishing school I went to a college
    Blimey - you went to finishing school - was it in Switzerland?

    Seriously - those of us of a "mature" age usually just drifted into IT from other things (I have a degree in Industrial Engineering), when there was a shortage of staff in the 80s.

    I tell kids to train up to be accountants - its a lot more use to them than IT. :?
    Yes, skiing in the alps every day.
    They taught us elocution (but not spelling) and how to carry oneself in a correct manner.

    OK, i meant "After I finished school". Jeeze grammar police or what!

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    Re: IT qualifications

    Grammar police are like the Spanish Inquisition...

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    Re: IT qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by AshF
    I wish more people valued experience over qualifications. Sadly in the greater world it doesn't seem to be the way of things a lot of the time...
    Until they stop HR drones from writing jobspecs, whitiling candidates down, and conducting interviews, this will never happen

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    Re: IT qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by AshF
    Grammar police are like the Spanish Inquisition...
    NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise....

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    Re: IT qualifications

    I wish more people valued experience over qualifications. Sadly in the greater world it doesn't seem to be the way of things a lot of the time...
    A lot of companies (mainly the smaller ones) are getting seriously burned by this. I recently went for a job interview and I was the only who was able to complete the practical test in the allotted time. Most of the other applicants had several qualifications (CCNA, MSCE, Degree whatever) yet fell down hard when faced with real problems.

    I think given a few more years the situation might of swung back round to a more balanced view of experience vs qualifications by employers.

    Personally I feel IT is one of those trades that would benefit from the old fashioned apprenticeship system. It's kind of how we do things here in house. I'm the Senior Tech, I train/pass on knowledge (generally server/network stuff) to the Tech. He trains up the Junior Tech (generally deskop/software/peripherals stuff) and everyone improves their skills.

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    Re: IT qualifications

    Geoff, I agree fully.
    I have no IT related qualifications. Everything I know is self taught and through experience.

    Now I'm not saying I know that much, but my experience helps me react in situations faster than having to think 'what did MCSA training teach me.' I know it's a generalisation there, but experience should really count over qualifications.
    You can have a 20yr old, just out of Uni who has a degree and a MCSE but has never been in an environment where 200 people are demanding you fix something within the next 5 minutes.

    Maybe future MS training should include things like how to deal with stroppy non-IT users

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    Re: IT qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2
    Geoff, I agree fully.
    I have no IT related qualifications. Everything I know is self taught and through experience.

    Now I'm not saying I know that much, but my experience helps me react in situations faster than having to think 'what did MCSA training teach me.' I know it's a generalisation there, but experience should really count over qualifications.
    You can have a 20yr old, just out of Uni who has a degree and a MCSE but has never been in an environment where 200 people are demanding you fix something within the next 5 minutes.

    Maybe future MS training should include things like how to deal with stroppy non-IT users
    I agree that in the first instance experience SHOULD win over, but long term you will probably find it's those that get the experience and quals.

    If you were interviewing candidates:
    Cand 1: 9 years experience, no formal quals
    Cand 2: 8 Years experience, MCSE, CCNA
    Cand 3: 6 years experience, Degree, MCP

    It would likely be cand 2 or 3 right? Obviously this is very generic and in an actual interview situation cand 1 might blow them away while the others flop, but on paper you'd be looking at 2 or 3.

    The point i'm trying to convey is that experience is great, so is qualifications, either academic or professional, but it's when you combine the 2 that you really do yourself the best chance. There is no hard and fast rule on this career path, as there is in accountancy, law, or medicine.

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    Re: IT qualifications

    No I agree on that point, if all candidates had many years of experience then fair enough.
    It's when job adverts say an MCSE is essential that it's silly. Because that means you are excluding people with experience who haven't got the certs but know just as much.

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    Re: IT qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Midget
    Until they stop HR drones from writing jobspecs, whitiling candidates down, and conducting interviews, this will never happen
    I do two and a half of those things...

    The Job Spec is written with my general eye over things, and the other two steps are done by myself, the MIS manager and then the final all clear by the deputy head...

    for the most part, this works well.

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    Re: IT qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by MK-2
    Maybe future MS training should include things like how to deal with stroppy non-IT users
    Also being able to identify little things like a VGA port, a Serial Port, SATA and so on would be useful...

    I have seen people with more MCSEs than I can remember sit down and take a 'Identify the component' test and fall on their face. You may have lots of certificates but thats not going to help you replace a HDD...

    For a while this college used to get it's junior techs as students on a gap year from Uni...
    My first year had Kev, who was all in all a great technician. His windows knowledge was solid as a rock and he had a fairly good programming base (indeed, he made our current web-based IT support database whilst here for the year). His hardware knowledge wasn't great. But we dealt with that. He learnt quickly and before he left he'd spec'd and built his own PC. Then there was Dan who was the mirror opposite and not only didn't know windows, he also didn't like it, and skulked until i gave him an old compaq to run Linux on.
    But again, he learnt, and he learnt quickly, and both have taken those skills and used them, and I'd hire the pair of them again in a flash if i had the chance.

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    Re: IT qualifications

    After years working in industry (although not in IT), I am lucky enough to have got my first job as an ICT Technician

    I have not been on any training courses or have any formal qualifications, only know what I have taught myself having owned a computer in one form or another since the age of 8.

    I genuinely look forward to coming to work every day, and while the money isn't great at the moment, job satisfaction can be more important (and the holidays take the egde off as well)

    I do not plan on being a technician for ever, I welcome the chance to move up the ladder at the first possible opportunity and I hope that supervisory/management experince gained in industry,won't hurt my chances.

    I also agree with the earlier post about working in eduation over industry, much, much better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: IT qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by triggmiester
    I genuinely look forward to coming to work every day.... I hope that supervisory/management experince gained in industry,won't hurt my chances.
    Do those two go together?

    The main reason works been less than fun round here is due to understaffing. Which we're taking care of right now. Hopefully.

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    Re: IT qualifications

    I'm with Geoff on this one, experience takes qualifications and kicks its head in, shoves an apple up its botty and leaves it bleeding in an alleyway.

    I would take people with experience over qualification certificate waving people any day. I have seen people with certifications who didnt have a clue how to do the most basic of server/policy/AD related tasks.

    Like many others on here, I dont own any certifications, and am entirely built on my experience of 20 years of farting about with PCs. At the end of the day, the problems and issues that can arise in this line of work are so hugely varied that no amount of certification can prepare you for it, often when a problem crops up, the solution is found not because you were taught it in a lecture or a book but because you have seen the problem before and have the experience of dealing with it.

    Its a pity that so many employers focus so heavily on certifications, when an uncertified chap like me can outperform them in the ways of IT like Magnus Magnusson to David Beckham in general knowledge.

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    Re: IT qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake
    I'm with Geoff on this one, experience takes qualifications and kicks its head in, shoves an apple up its botty and leaves it bleeding in an alleyway.
    I'm against you on this one Jake, I know paper MCSE's have devalued the cert, but at least it's something. Anybody could put on their CV that they have x amount years experience, and ask a friend at the company to write a reference, but an MCSE / or BSc / MSc / CCNA / etc. are there and can be handed over as proof. Ok, yes somebody might not be able to do something straight away but a good education / certifications shows an ability to learn. Even those people who have just read the book and dumped it onto paper to get their certs have some sort of intellegence about them. I'm not knocking experience, i think it's great, heck i'm getting mine now, but i know for a fact i would not have progressed as quickly as i have now if i hadnt got qualifications.

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    Re: IT qualifications

    but an MCSE / or BSc / MSc / CCNA / etc. are there and can be handed over as proof.
    As qualifications they are fine. However the problems seem to be stemming from people lying about what qualifications they have. If all the CVs that come in have a long list of qualifications listed on them how else can you differentiate between them?

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