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General Chat Thread, Fingerprinting. Goodbye! in General; I've just read the Conserable Coalition Manifesto and noticed this: Outlawing the finger-printing of children at school without parental permission. ...
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    Mr.Ben's Avatar
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    Fingerprinting. Goodbye!

    I've just read the Conserable Coalition Manifesto and noticed this:

    Outlawing the finger-printing of children at school without parental permission.

    C'mon then, who's been doing it (and how much are mls going to lose out!)

    Good idea in my opionion. No parent in there right mind would allow it!

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    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Ben View Post
    I've just read the Conserable Coalition Manifesto and noticed this:

    Outlawing the finger-printing of children at school without parental permission.

    C'mon then, who's been doing it (and how much are mls going to lose out!)

    Good idea in my opionion. No parent in there right mind would allow it!
    Don't know about MIS, what about CSI?

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    Actually, I suspect a large percentage of parents would allow it, for catering system use anyway, better than their child continually losing their card.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Ben View Post
    I've just read the Conserable Coalition Manifesto and noticed this:

    Outlawing the finger-printing of children at school without parental permission.

    C'mon then, who's been doing it (and how much are mls going to lose out!)

    Good idea in my opionion. No parent in there right mind would allow it!
    A huge number of schools have fingerprinted children without explicit permission. The Information Commissioners Office advice, IIRC, is that it is covered under existing permissions and rules governing data collection and data protection within schools.

    We fingerprinted pretty much all the kids here a while back, when we introduced our new cashless catering system. We didn't do it without notice though - we advertised it in our school newsletter twice and sent a letter home to parents also. Only 3 families opted to not have their children scanned, and these pupils all have physical tokens instead which are scanned.

    My guess would be that school admissions forms, and data checking forms will simply gain a new 'We operate a cashless catering system/registration system which uses fingerprints, if you would not like your child to be scanned please tick here' entry or similar.

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    plexer's Avatar
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    Good idea in my opionion. No parent in there right mind would allow it!
    Why?

    Ben

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    creese's Avatar
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    We have a small number of schools using the system for catering. There was a story in the local rag, which soon blew over.

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    CESIL's Avatar
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    I really don't see what the objection to this is...it's not as if we pass the fingerprint info to the police!

    If parents have so little trust in schools then why do they leave their kids in our care!

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    FN-GM's Avatar
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    it's not as if we pass the fingerprint info to the police!
    And that would bad becuase...

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    Who says the school is responsible for the data? Some companies keep the data... so its not just about school trust.

    I dont see why this is done in the first place, its not as if schools have not been able to give out book or meals before.

    Still, no bio-ID cards now means no need to prepare the children for a bio-ID society.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN-GM View Post
    And that would bad becuase...
    I was wondering that myself. Surely if the police were interested in the fingerprint of a child, they have an easier way of getting it? ie. arresting the kid and taking it that way?

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theblacksheep View Post
    Who says the school is responsible for the data? Some companies keep the data... so its not just about school trust.

    I dont see why this is done in the first place, its not as if schools have not been able to give out book or meals before.
    How do you keep track of what the child has been eating without individual identification at the till? We introduced it due to new requirements (or so I was told) for parents to be able to see what food the school has been feeding their child. The options we had were spending thousands on prox cards, or some other form of physical token (which kids can lose) or spending a tenth of that for fingerprint equipment and software.

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    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I was wondering that myself. Surely if the police were interested in the fingerprint of a child, they have an easier way of getting it? ie. arresting the kid and taking it that way?
    Certainly a lot quicker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CESIL View Post
    I really don't see what the objection to this is...it's not as if we pass the fingerprint info to the police!

    If parents have so little trust in schools then why do they leave their kids in our care!
    Indeed! To me it makes perfect sense. No cash to worry about or cards to lose so bullying would be harder in the "give us your lunch money" sense as hopefully the staff would notice if someone was being forced into getting food etc.

    There is the whole issue of getting permission (or rather giving the choice to opt out of it) which is the same with most school activities (photos / video / internet access / etc) so yes, if they don't trust the school ..

    The police are only allowed to use records they have obtained legitimately so if they need to check the finger prints of children in a school to rule people out (or catch a culprit) then they would have to send in a forensics team anyway to obtain them, which would be yet another permission slip for the parents).

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    Adding another nail to this coffin, the last time I saw these systems, the fingerprints are stored electronically (and often, hopefully encrypted), and I would suspect these are not admissable as ID, as they are, compared to an ink imprint of a persons hand, fakeable.

    It's not like a high resolution photograph of your finger, and the way they store the data is not necessarily the same as what the police would use to store their fingerprints.

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    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilfisher View Post
    Adding another nail to this coffin, the last time I saw these systems, the fingerprints are stored electronically (and often, hopefully encrypted), and I would suspect these are not admissable as ID, as they are, compared to an ink imprint of a persons hand, fakeable.

    It's not like a high resolution photograph of your finger, and the way they store the data is not necessarily the same as what the police would use to store their fingerprints.
    The little I understand is that it is not a full fingerprint stored but a number of reference points, which would be useless to the police.

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