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General Chat Thread, Fingerprinting. Goodbye! in General; 6. Takes money away from worthwhile spending on books etc. Yes. When this happened in my school the number of ...
  1. #31

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    6. Takes money away from worthwhile spending on books etc. Yes.
    When this happened in my school the number of students having school dinners and buying stuff from the canteen actually went up! Which may seem odd at first but when you think about its probably easier for the kids.

    They don't have to worry about bring money each day, just load some on (or get parents to send money in) once every so often and then when they want to buy something just simply put their finger on the reader.

  2. #32

    synaesthesia's Avatar
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    Rubbish, all of it. The only personally really against it here is most likely a member of the forum from which he or she linked and signed up just to have a pop without anything to back up his or her claims.

    No government will disallow the typical style of fingerprinting as we know MLS use - i.e. where the prints are stored only as a number and can't be remade into a fingerprint. It's very useful indeed and does speed up and make many processes far more efficient, removing human error from a lot of it. Which is always good.

  3. #33

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    I just don't know how to say this diplomatically so I'll just say what I think: There are some security idiocies on this thread: "it's stored as numbers", "as hashes", "it's encrypted" really doesn't make much difference to potential utility of the data or the long-standing case against collecting it[1].

    [1] First made really well by the bloke who wrote the quote in my sig.

  4. #34

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    Apologies for any typos In a hurry so a bit of a brain dump from memory

    1st its not about the likelyhood of a school fingerprint system being stolen to create a massive fraud or some such....its about the possibility that biometric data can be compromised. Once its compromised there are no replacement fingerprints. Biometrics are 'of' the person not 'about' the person. a VERY big difference.


    oh and yeah lets not forget... its about the fundamental human right to privacy.

    Article 8(2) of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms states that:

    There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as in accordance with the law ***and is necessary*** in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the ...

    The N WORD = PRESSING SOCIAL NEED look up some EU case law and you will see teh ICO guidance is illegal as it contravenes the HRA. I alos offer as facial information can be determined from dermaglyphs it also exposes racial chartaeristics. fingerprints have also be related to soem chromosomal disorders. i would need to check my references.

    Did you read the bioethics paper if not a link is below. its wortwhile but there is plenty others out there if you care to search and read and THINK

    Oh try this for real science.... there is i plenty like it

    Cappelli, R.; Lumini, A.; Maio, D.; Maltoni, D.;
    Univ. di Bologna, Cesena

    This paper appears in: Pattern Analysis and Machine Intelligence, IEEE Transactions on
    Issue Date: Sept. 2007
    Volume: 29 Issue:9
    On page(s): 1489 - 1503
    ISSN: 0162-8828
    INSPEC Accession Number: 9620960
    Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/TPAMI.2007.1087
    Date of Current Version: 13 August 2007
    PubMed ID: 17627039
    Sponsored by: IEEE Computer Society


    Abstract
    A minutiae-based template is a very compact representation of a fingerprint image, and for a long time, it has been assumed that it did not contain enough information to allow the reconstruction of the original fingerprint. This work proposes a novel approach to reconstruct fingerprint images from standard templates and investigates to what extent the reconstructed images are similar to the original ones (that is, those the templates were extracted from). The efficacy of the reconstruction technique has been assessed by estimating the success chances of a masquerade attack against nine different fingerprint recognition algorithms. The experimental results show that the ***reconstructed images are very realistic and that, although it is unlikely that they can fool a human expert, there is a high chance to deceive state-of-the-art commercial fingerprint recognition systems.***

    So when someone says a print cannot be reconstituted what they mean is reconstituted perfectly. It can be reconstituted well enough... and if you know fingerprints you will know they do not need to be perfect to be matched they just need a few points of reference to match. see http://www.shirleymckie.com/facts.htm

    Read this bioethics paper

    http://www.bioethics.ie/uploads/docs...oc_HighRes.pdf

    oh and the Irish ICO is very very clear, as was my legal advice from Bidmans.. chools should not have been doing this.... you guys call yourself geeks.. be one... read up...consider possibilities as well as probabilities...edcucate yourself on real science.

    the science of persuasion is a good place to start... this was brought in to make Biometrics mundane everyday unimportant. The ICO do not take any expert advice as far as a freedom of information disclosure can make out so they were either inept or worse when they OK'd this originally. but then again they have form sorry for the pun.... checkout phorm and BT virgin etc etc


    geeks.... you wish
    Last edited by sisco-kid; 13th May 2010 at 09:39 PM.

  5. #35

    EduTech's Avatar
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    thinking about it, i had my figerprint taken when i was at secondary school.. it was done in yr 7 for the Micro Librarian software so that i could sign in / out books!... i dont believe any policy was in place then and i dont think the school i was working at had a policy either for it.. :|

    James.

  6. #36

    synaesthesia's Avatar
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    I think choice may well be the key. Rather than forcing something on people, give them a choice and work out a practicable alternative.

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    reconstruction of the original fingerprint.
    Do we need that?

    Assume I'm a minion from the Ministerium für Staatssicherheit of the Great and Tranformational Leader for the Glorious Progressive 21st Century Future and I have a spray paint can with a fingerprint on it that was used by some treacherous vermin to scribble a disloyal message on some back-alley wall. Surely all I have to do is feed that fingerprint into the same algortihms used by any of those systems, and check whether the "number" I get out matches any of the "numbers" in your database (you were all obliged to hand those over to the State BTW).

    This is exagerrated ... although next to some real times/places not that much ... but it's to illustrate a fundamental principle that apparently hasn't been taught or at least sunk in for quite a while: It's all very well people now saying "oh no we won't do X, Y and Z" with this data, but the **only** way to ensure it it not seriously abused by some differently minded people in future is not to collect it in the first place.

    Exhibit A is RIPA: We had people saying "yes it does permit that, but we're nice and won't do X, Y and Z .. it's just for terrorists and really scary people" and then we got some dipstick council using it to follow parents around re. their kids entitlement to a place at a school.

  8. #38

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    Our library system uses fingerprint scanner but converts using an algorithm to key points of each print and cannont be reconstructed into anything usable. So I see no problem at all in this type of system

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by imiddleton25 View Post
    Our library system uses fingerprint scanner but converts using an algorithm to key points of each print and cannont be reconstructed into anything usable. So I see no problem at all in this type of system
    All fingerprint systems "just" maps key points from the fingerprint. This doesn't mean that you can't map backwards, and as has been shown above has already been done. As has also been pointed out you can still take the data and the algorithm and use both to match an existing fingerprint to a person. There are huge privacy implications from storing any form of fingerprint data - processed or not.

    It's no different in reality to "just" storing a password hash rather than the password in plain text. Just because it's hashed/encrypted doesn't mean it can't be broken.

  10. #40
    Trapper's Avatar
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    I remember as a kid the police came to my primary school and showed us their finger printing kit, and then took prints of my entire class group.

    We never got them, I wonder if they were building up at database even back then in the very late 80s.

    Not that it said much for the school, or the catchment area either!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfish View Post
    All fingerprint systems "just" maps key points from the fingerprint. This doesn't mean that you can't map backwards, and as has been shown above has already been done. As has also been pointed out you can still take the data and the algorithm and use both to match an existing fingerprint to a person. There are huge privacy implications from storing any form of fingerprint data - processed or not.

    It's no different in reality to "just" storing a password hash rather than the password in plain text. Just because it's hashed/encrypted doesn't mean it can't be broken.
    I've heard that a school in my area uses fingerprints as their cashless catering system

    I did wonder about how they protected the data, and apparently the prints and the student details aren't "held" together, and if anyone got hold of the server/databases they would be unable to put the prints with a student. How this works, or even if it is safe I do not know

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trapper View Post
    I've heard that a school in my area uses fingerprints as their cashless catering system

    I did wonder about how they protected the data, and apparently the prints and the student details aren't "held" together, and if anyone got hold of the server/databases they would be unable to put the prints with a student. How this works, or even if it is safe I do not know
    I'd call that a load of crap to be honest. At some point they have to match the print to the student, meaning that somewhere there is a link between the student and their print.

  13. #43

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PiqueABoo View Post
    I just don't know how to say this diplomatically so I'll just say what I think: There are some security idiocies on this thread: "it's stored as numbers", "as hashes", "it's encrypted" really doesn't make much difference to potential utility of the data or the long-standing case against collecting it[1].

    [1] First made really well by the bloke who wrote the quote in my sig.
    Sorry, but what's the potential utility of encrypted fingerprint data, which is only stored in a school for time the child is there? I'm not going to go giving out the keys to decrypt it, so how would it be any use to anyone, unless they have a court order? If they have one of them to go trawling for information, then the issue is with the court system not with the fingerprint storage...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward, Posted Thursday 13th May 2010 14:01 GMT
    1. Speeds up queues. No more than sensibly implementing any non biometric register system.
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Yes, it does. Otherwise, you end up with people who've lost/damaged their cards etc... Commenter obviously doesn't work anywhere near a school canteen.
    Funny, when i was at school (albeit forty-odd years ago) there were never any problems working out which kids had school dinners. The bottleneck was serving the actual food - how long does it take for a teacher to ask "Sonny, what is your name", "Jenkins Sir", "Thank you Jenkins - on your way!"?

    Maybe one of the reasons was that every teacher knew pretty much every child in the school, and they didn't have to rely on bar codes and scanners and other technology to do their jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward, Posted Thursday 13th May 2010 14:01 GMT
    2. It's easier. Easier than NOT fingerprinting kids? No I don't think so.
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Easier than printing hundreds of cards. Easier than having a person a till manually find and enter names.
    Why have cards either? How about giving a child some respect and individual identity - not just treating them as a number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward, Posted Thursday 13th May 2010 14:01 GMT
    3. Protects against fraud. Yeah little Johnny is really going to pay for his lunchtime doughnut with a stolen credit card isn't he?
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Fraud should be taken to mean 'bullies taking dinner money from a child'.
    But "bullying" is a bigger problem than stopping someone pinching Johnny's dinner money - he can still get jumped on and have his sweets pinched, or his nice new pencil set broken or whatever. Finger-print scanners won't stop bullying!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward, Posted Thursday 13th May 2010 14:01 GMT
    4. Trains children to be malleable in the hands of authority as required for the coming police state and in particular to surrender their ID on request to anyone for any reason. BINGO.
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Seems like someone reads too many conspiracy theories.
    They have no choice but to do what they are told - the (state) machine says it, so you must do it. No room for negotiation, no room for discussion, no human interaction

    Also see #7

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward, Posted Thursday 13th May 2010 14:01 GMT
    5. Enriches the people working towards the goals outlined in reason #4. Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Huh?
    I am very surprised that you haven't sussed this one out - you are normally pretty sharp on these kinds of things? Certain companies are going to make a very lot of money out of this - and we are talking tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds. And once they get state approval (from ministers who may end up in non-exec positions in said companies), making this money is like, er, taking candy from a baby

    Take a look at VeriCool - it seems very, er, cool - but nowhere on the website does it mention that it is a subsidiary of General Dynamics - a US company who may not have to abide by the same data protection laws as we have in the UK! Even if they do, a fair chunk of the money spent buying their products will end up on the lefthand side of the Atlantic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward, Posted Thursday 13th May 2010 14:01 GMT
    6. Takes money away from worthwhile spending on books etc. Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No, not at all. Do you think the money taken in from a school canteen goes just towards books etc...? No, it goes towards tills, maintenance, and the like. Add in parental reporting on what children eat in schools and how else do you propose doing it? Cards? They cost MORE than fingerprinting.
    Ah, we are back to #4 here with "parental reporting on what children eat in schools" - more micro-management and snooping on the intricacies of our private lives by the (thankfully) outgoing administration. And all at a huge cost - not just the basic system, but all the bits around it (including IT support etc.).

    Out of interest, what system do you have installed and what are its costs (both capital and on-going)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward, Posted Thursday 13th May 2010 14:01 GMT
    7. Trains parents and teachers alike that it is acceptable for children (and immigrants) to be digitally cataloged, with a view to manufacturing their consent to, and implied agreement with, ID cards and the necessary infrastructure for verifying said cards as a prerequisites to activities that will include, but are not limited to; buying, selling, traveling, working and accessing public services.
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Again with the conspiracy theories.
    Some people must be walking around with their eyes shut (i suppose that it feels safer that way)?

    For many years now we have been slowly conditioned to accept what we previously would have found totally unacceptable. Pubs are being "asked" to request ID from anyone who looks under 25 years old at the same time as (state) ID cards are being promoted as they easy way to prove your age. Our houses are being inspected by "the state" when we sell them to check how many CFLs we have fitted and how big our garden is. Our vehicle movements are being tracked continuously and the data held for years

    Let us hope that the new ConLib agreement on Civil Liberties (see Now I'm happy..) will reverse some of these measures and at the same time simplify (and reduce the costs for) our lives!

    mb

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    Quote Originally Posted by synaesthesia View Post
    Rubbish, all of it. The only personally really against it here is most likely a member of the forum from which he or she linked and signed up just to have a pop without anything to back up his or her claims.
    Nah, yer probably right - only a fruit-cake loop-biscuit would worry about fingerprint scanners in schools!

    Invisible writing follows...

    Pupils 'frogmarched by teachers to have fingerprints taken' so they could eat in canteen
    Parents' outrage at 'Big Brother' school dinners fingerprinting
    School dinner fingerprint system faces backlash
    US SPOOKS STORING OUR PUPILS' PRINTS
    School fingerprint system 'exposes pupils to hackers and criminals'



    mb



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