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General Chat Thread, A Point Of View: "School Networks – No Longer Just A Man In A Cupboard…" in General; Originally Posted by russdev So people think that industry have higher wages and yes this was true 2 years back ...
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    broc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by russdev View Post
    So people think that industry have higher wages and yes this was true 2 years back but under current climate that is not so true.

    Russ
    Oh really?

    How about these, plucked from Google 30 seconds ago....

    Network Manager Renfrewshire
    Type: Permanent
    Salary:£32,000 > £40,000
    Date added:10 February 2010

    IT Network Manager

    Listed on: 17th February
    Location: South East south east
    Salary/Rate: £45000 - £50000
    Tags: network | network manager | change management | wan | network south east

  2. #47

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    @broc

    I am not saying that high wages do not exist. What I am saying is people see the industry in a certain way. The high wages are there but not as many as people think there is. I also think the IT in industry will start to see wages decrease as they have been unhit up untill recently. I think Fujitsu is the tip of the iceberg.

    But to add another element to it the same blog post.

    I wonder though how many organisations that contract out to IT service providers would be happy if they knew the staff working on their systems were on £12k basic? Would they want call centre staff on £12k? How much commitment do you get for that sort of money?
    The fact that Network Managers can in some areas get £12K this links back to OP point of view that commitment needs to be their from SLT etc to get the commitment back.

  3. #48

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    I think that salaries are in general depressed across many industries, both in the public and private sector. Excluding investment bankers of course.....

    Large corporations like Fujitsu are jumping on the 'recession' bandwagon & using their corporate 'muscle' to drive down wages & pension costs to enhance their balance sheets, knowing that employees are anxious about their job security & will put up with a lot more than they would in a buoyant job market.

    This is happening across the board with big accountant-led IT companies such as IBM, HP, Fujitsu & others even though they are still turning in decent profits. They are savaging their pension schemes too all in the sake of shareholder value.

    Companies such as IBM are even trying to offload staff costs through early retirement schemes rather than redundancy as it enables them to avoid making redundancy payments by making their pension schemes pay out & it keeps jobs open ....

    At some point the tide will turn...
    Last edited by broc; 3rd March 2010 at 12:11 PM.

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    Ok, I've worked both in business and education, so a few thoughts.
    Pay
    For technician/engineer level work, the pay can be much higher in industry due to overtime, out of hours, on call payments etc.
    On middle management level jobs, such as network manager, although the renumeration appears higher you end up doing a lot of unpaid overtime and actually end up on real rate of pay less than a school network manager.
    Leadership
    The same muppetry goes on in business, dont think this is just a school think ;-)
    Some businesses have very good, forward thinking leadership who value the input of their staff, others don't, so not much different from schools.
    Budgets
    Yes, most businesses have a higher ICT budget, but they also pay a lot more for their kit, especially on software licensing as education gets very heavy discounting. You also start looking at the cost of some of the back end business software such as SAP and the costs really do make your eyes water, SIMS licensing is nothing compared to this stuff.

    Where I do find a big difference is when govt starts sticking their oars in, either Central Govt or Local Govt and this is where the vast majority of waste and stupid fad ideas come in from. I would much prefer a system where schools were directly funded, had to meet certain educational standards and were then left to get on with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    I would much prefer a system where schools were directly funded, had to meet certain educational standards and were then left to get on with it.
    You mean like Academies?

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    russdev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    You mean like Academies?
    I did wonder who was going to be the first to say that i was betting Tony

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    A lot more people will find out what it is like working for an Academy if the Tories get elected in May....

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    Erm, yes, like academies. There are some aspects of the academy programme I don't like, but essentially yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    I think that salaries are in general depressed across many industries, both in the public and private sector. Excluding investment bankers of course.....
    ....and excluding developers who work in banks in the city

    your point about early retirement, isn't that the trick the public sector bodies are going to try and pull out of the hat to achieve some staff reductions ?

    and yes, the tories do seem to want to run with the academy idea. So that's potentially a lot more schools outside of LA control, but what of the IT ? How can the results not be variable. Not sure about this, or whether BSF is to run in parallel with this purported expansion in academy schools.

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    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    A lot more people will find out what it is like working for an Academy if the Tories get elected in May....
    The Lib Dems also seem to be interested in a 'Sponsored Academy' idea. They also want to move all schools away from state/la interference.

  12. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    ....yes, the tories do seem to want to run with the academy idea. So that's potentially a lot more schools outside of LA control, but what of the IT ? How can the results not be variable. Not sure about this, or whether BSF is to run in parallel with this purported expansion in academy schools.
    I agree; Academies & BSF are certainly a variable quantity as you say; I know of a number who are or will be firmly entrenched in their LA BSF managed service, so who knows how this will shape up?

    One of the more unsettling aspects of Academies is where one or more schools is closed to rise up again as an Academy.... with staff being obliged to seek re-appointment but under new terms & conditions. This cannot be a nice experience for those staff members affected.

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    I think the Academy programme in most areas is seperate to the BSF programme, although some academies have gone with a MSP for ICT.

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    A number of LAs have been pressured to incorporate Academies into their BSF projects, Sunderland and County Durham are two that I am aware of. I believe in both cases Academies are or will be expected to take managed services too.

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    @broc

    I was going to post the same yes they are often linked into BSF.

    Russell

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    Quote Originally Posted by russdev View Post
    I did wonder who was going to be the first to say that i was betting Tony
    Been a bit too busy to get into serious debate about this side of things today ... but Academies are organised slightly different from BSF, even those within BSF, with regards to how they identify the needs for technology. That, to me, is the biggest difference ... not whether they have a managed service or not.

    I suppose we come back to what is regarded as a network manager in a school. The title means little as it is given to those supporting 300+ clients as well as 40. It ranges from those who have little 'management' to do through to someone managing a team of 6, with a budget of £300k a year and answerable only to the head honcho! The workload is different, the tasks are different, the responsibilities are different ... the stress is different too.

    Each school has different needs though, so it is not the fault of the NM abotu what they do or don't do .. but we should recognise that some are pushed further and harder than others and deserve a different salary. Some people might not like me saying that but it is true.

    However, it doesn't take into account educational outcomes (buzzword alert! buzzwod alert!) and the school might want to pay more for someone who makes a larger difference to the performance of the school. More hands-on work with teachers, helping them understand the applications better ... more how-to guides for students ... RnD work on content ... it varies.

    The flexibility to give staff what they deserve can be really beneficial as long as manglement don't hide behind LA rules and regs ... but it relies on the senior leaders in the school having a true understanding about what you do.

    To some extent I still want to look at standards of delivery of services and practices rather than just raw info on competency levels. Not so much what jobs can you do, but can you do them well and does it make a difference.

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