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General Chat Thread, local government pay freeze in General; Originally Posted by localzuk Ah, but if that's the case, our pay is worthless too - so in real terms, ...
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    ICT_GUY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Ah, but if that's the case, our pay is worthless too - so in real terms, we'll still be in the same situation when it comes to paying off debt.
    Not so, I bought stuff that I wanted when my money was worth more then I will have had maximum gain from my labour.

    Example, buying a house 10 years ago, its intrinsic value is still the same, its a shelter for my family. Yet its monetary value has increased 4 fold yet my wages (in purchasing power) has devalued every year.

    If you had 100K in a bank, 10 years ago it would have bought a nice house, today even with interest you would lucky to be able to buy half a house.

    This is how the government creates the illusion of growth, by rewarding those who borrow and punishing those who save. Money tied up in banks does not help the economy, but it does allow a lot of people you probably wouldn't like to have very nice bonuses.

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    somabc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    Thtas the best way to look at it, at least for the next 12-18 months. Things could be a lot worse.
    How could they be worse? The government has taken all the money they were going to use to pay you, pay for public services, pay for your pension, pay for your pay rise and given it to the Banks who have carried on giving it to themselves.

    I am surprised we are not rioting in the streets.

  3. Thanks to somabc from:

    aleach2 (10th February 2010)

  4. #33

    LeMarchand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    I am surprised we are not rioting in the streets.
    I'm constantly amazed by this too.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    How could they be worse? The government has taken all the money they were going to use to pay you, pay for public services, pay for your pension, pay for your pay rise and given it to the Banks who have carried on giving it to themselves.

    I am surprised we are not rioting in the streets.
    We're British! Not French! Stiff upper lip old chap!

  6. #35

    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    How could they be worse? The government has taken all the money they were going to use to pay you, pay for public services, pay for your pension, pay for your pay rise and given it to the Banks who have carried on giving it to themselves.

    I am surprised we are not rioting in the streets.
    I often wonder what happened to all the fuel riots when petrol hit 70p a litre, seeing as we're now at 50% more than that. Seems to always follow a pattern with petrol prices:
    1. Price goes up stupidly high
    2. People complain
    3. Prices get lowered, usually by supermarkets, with a hurt puppy expression and cries of "cutting me own throat guv'nor"
    4. People are satisfied
    5. Petrol creeps up again, except slower, so no-one notices and no-one complains and nothing has been achieved by anyone.

  7. #36
    somabc's Avatar
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    I'm sure the government would be happy for those left to say well at least I have a job as though nothing is wrong, as though it is normal for companies to pretend they have money and trade it around the world with each other for years until you have trillions in virtual money floating around and each step the people involved get paid.

    Turns out the financial system is giant reverse game of musical chairs and the person left at the end loses.

    Does anyone recognize this from 1984?

    Mostly because proles are not expected to understand that they are exploited by the Party (as a source of cheap labour) and are unable and/or unwilling to organize resistance. Their functions are simple: work and breed. They care little about anything but home and family, neighbour quarrels, films and football, beer and lottery tickets. They are not required to express support for the Party, except for a mild form of patriotism. The Party creates meaningless songs, novels, even pornography for the proles. Proles do not wear a uniform, can use cosmetics and have a relatively free internal market economy. Proles also have free sex lives, uninterrupted by the Party, and divorce is permitted. Despite the personal freedoms enjoyed by the Proles, the Thought Police moves among them, spreading false rumors and marking down and eliminating any individuals deemed capable of causing trouble. The Prole quarters consist of rundown apartment buildings, shops, and pubs.
    "If there is hope [Wrote Winston} it lies in the Proles.

    If there was hope, it must lie in the Proles, because only there, in those swarming disregarded masses, eighty-five percent of the population of Oceania, could the force to destroy the Party ever be generated. The Party could not be overthrown from within. Its enemies, if it had any enemies, had no way of coming together or even identifying one another. Even if the legendary Brotherhood existed, as just possibly it might, it was inconceivable that its members could ever assemble in numbers larger than twos and threes. Rebellion meant a look in the eyes, an inflection of the voice; at the most an occasional whispered word. But the Proles, if only they could somehow become conscious of their own strength, would have no need to conspire. They needed only to rise up and shake themselves like a horse shaking off flies. If they chose they could blow the Party to pieces tomorrow morning. Surely it must occur to them to do it. and yet - !...

    Until they become conscious, they will never rebel, and until they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.
    Last edited by somabc; 9th February 2010 at 12:11 PM.

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    That's not a solution. Simple Solution is find something hopefully sustainable that creates money ie. Manufacturing, Green Technology, Coal / Oil / Gas etc.
    So a combination of big hamster type wheels, bank managers and MPs then?

  9. #38
    somabc's Avatar
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    Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
    "Around 2002 in particular, various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future," one insider recalled, adding that Mediterranean countries had snapped up such products.

    Greece's debt managers agreed a huge deal with the savvy bankers of US investment bank Goldman Sachs at the start of 2002. The deal involved so-called cross-currency swaps in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period -- to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date.

    Such transactions are part of normal government refinancing. Europe's governments obtain funds from investors around the world by issuing bonds in yen, dollar or Swiss francs. But they need euros to pay their daily bills. Years later the bonds are repaid in the original foreign denominations.

    But in the Greek case the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.
    Fictional exchange rates that takes a special kind of genius!

  10. #39

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    I've never understood why people in different public sector jobs get different cost of living rises? - Surely its just that, a cost of living rise so it should be fixed for everyone - support staff, teachers, doctors, nurses, policemen and politicians etc.

    If we (as a country) can't afford a pay rise this year then ok fair enough (we'll ignore how we got in this mess) but surely that means no one in the public sector gets one. What annoys me is if we don't but teachers get 2 or 3% and MP's get 6 or whatever percent.

    Steve

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    I was used to not getting pay rises, in PC world I had the same pay for 3 yrs they didn't increase the scales of pay once while I was there.... No cost of living or anything! I was v pleased to see pay rate increases in schools, I agree with the others, be glad you still have a job.

    Has anyone else noticed that loads of apparently 'wealthy' countries are in 'debt'? Seems a bit of a coincidence.

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    ozzy's Avatar
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    It sucks, it'll cause no end of bad feeling within schools when teaching staff get a rise and the rest of us don't because the teachers make the school work teachers could'nt do there job without all support staff from the cleaner to the office staff. It's about time that the population of this country got to know that this is the case. And what makes the childrens education possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    We're British! Not French! Stiff upper lip old chap!


    hahahaha thud.... i fell of my chair when i read that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Ah, but if that's the case, our pay is worthless too - so in real terms, we'll still be in the same situation when it comes to paying off debt.
    you have to factor in two things. Inflation and interest rates....

    Where those who have jobs may see a pay freeze a lot of them also have mortgage debt [the main outgoing], they are benefiting from very low interest rates which allows them to pay off more of this debt or to save the extra income because of these reduced repayments. They are effectively seeing a pay rise if they're on some of the tracker deals that were out there

    If you rent, tough s***.

    inflation, specifically, seems to do wonders for the real value of debts. And ofcourse specifically house price inflation is good news if you've got large mortgage debt and not a lot of equity. You don't need to worry about someting as trivial as paying the debt down with cash.

    I must say i am surprised by a lot of the improved confidence surveys and sentiment - i think there's a lot of nervousness to come in the public sector, but also the pickup in confidence shouldn't be that surprising given the gument seem to have avoided the worst unemployment projections, and ofcourse those low interest rates.

    ICT_GUY is quite right, savers are being shafted. This countries housing market is a joke, the biggest housing bubble in our history spread over 10 years, then the world's biggest ever banking crisis, and now house price inflation is running at 9-10% per year. WTF?? Just does not compute.

    All i reckon is, if your not an asset holder, continue to get used to feeling poor [unless your in a very lucrative field of work in which case you probably already own a house or three]. Good thing is, i know who i'm not going to be voting for this election because of the wealth and income inequality. the pay freezes are just the thin end of the wedge as far as i'm concerned.....the pay freezes affect some more than others for sure. some have been completely unaffected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post

    ICT_GUY is quite right, savers are being shafted.
    Has it ever been different? Sure, interest rates have been higher so you get more interest credited each year but if inflation is also higher then you're no better off.

    The whole way the savings market works is that I lend my money to the bank. They then lend it to someone else who pays x% interest. The bank keeps some fraction of that and gives me (x - a bit)% interest. The only people that win are the banks because of that "bit" they keep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srochford View Post
    Has it ever been different? Sure, interest rates have been higher so you get more interest credited each year but if inflation is also higher then you're no better off.

    The whole way the savings market works is that I lend my money to the bank. They then lend it to someone else who pays x% interest. The bank keeps some fraction of that and gives me (x - a bit)% interest. The only people that win are the banks because of that "bit" they keep.
    i agree in the sense that i think people should think more about the function of a bank and the banking sector, but i personally am not interested in savings for the interest return. Merely i use it as a comparatively safe store where i can get capital return ie my money back.

    I'm sure there are other options that would cut out a bank and it's profit making via it's virtual money shuffling. But then that's me being lazy.

    What i object to more than the returns via interest on savings, is the policy of forcing people to use that money by leveraging it. And the lack of inflation on earned income. This all has the effect of basically saying, cash is trash, if you don't speculate with it then you'll be shafted because your cash holding will be devalued and we'll allow borrowers to benefit twice...once via low IR's and again via capital appreciation.

    I reckon low IR's, the extending of credit and capital appreciaton in stuff like bricks and mortar got us into this mess in part. But then when you see what a lot of people actually earn and how little they are able to save then there's little wonder that it's now the route so many are forced down. And no surprise it's gumment policy.

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