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General Chat Thread, McKinnon: The longest ever game of pass the parcel in General; Realistically a tenth of the media reported 70 years would be realistic, although not really in-line with what was committed. ...
  1. #61
    dwhyte85's Avatar
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    Realistically a tenth of the media reported 70 years would be realistic, although not really in-line with what was committed.

    3-4 years tops would be more than adequate, US then take a hit and say they have worked on improving security on IT systems and stop all the sillyness.

    Again, in my opinion. If i was a US security official... i'd have to take this on the chin and put procedures in place to ensure it never happened again... rather than crying over spilled milk.

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    I have to say I agree 6-7 months seems about right - even taking into account his Asperger's Syndrome.

    The people I've spoken to in America that are involved with Autism advocacy also thought he deserved prison time - and 3 years was the figure one man gave - a man who himself despite having Asperger's managed to serve two stints in the US Navy - as opposed to hacking their boxes...

    What I haven't talked about in my posts is the systems administrators. They really do deserve 70 years/hanging for risking such an important network.

    I haven't heard a single thing about their role in this - no sign of anyone having been disciplined/sacked.

    But anyway, it's irrelevant - McKinnon's Mummy called for a Whaaambulance, and it's arrived just in time. She won the battle. McKinnon walks.

  3. #63

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    This has been a fun thread with lots of rotten fruit thrown around (sweet $deity ... spot a troll when you see one and then ridicule instead of arguing if you feel you really must make a come back ... anything else is urinating into the wind! Of course .. that is just my opinion!)

    Disabilities are not excuses ... there is no such thing as an excuse in law. There are mitigating factors for defence (or acquittal) and these can either help prosecution services decided whether it will go to trial or not, and when at trial they will help the jury decide whether they are innocent or guilty, or they will help in the sentencing if it is a guilty verdict. The constant use of it is almost counter productive. An offence is alleged ... and should be dealt with as appropriately as possible.

    Saying that all mental health considerations should be considered *during the trial* and if necessary *during the sentencing and subsequent incarceration*.

    I have two problems with what has happened though ... and these are my personal opinion (formed through understanding of a variety of facts and experiences, and happy to explain these to support my opinion).

    1 - I hate the one-way rule. Sorry, but no country should be able to force another to give up a subject / citizen and not be able to do the same in return. Damned hypocritical for somewhere that politically aligns itself to freedom and fairness. Until this is addressed then I would not hand him over. Nothing to do with his condition, the offence or anything else. I know there are loopholes, political reasons and so on ... but sod it Gary, do a runner to France if you have to.

    2 - The blame game that has gone on over this about who is at fault, who left doors ajar, who made to cock-up ... it is a bit lame. NSA guidance on security was not followed. Does anyone have any information on the inquiry about who was disciplined over this? NSA have not changed their guidance over hardening due to to the incident and why was that? Because if someone had done their job in the first place then a certain amount of this would be moot. The attempted access would probably have been dealt with under CMA and everyone would have been happy ...

    But hey ... short of doing a runner to somewhere that will stick to fingers up to the US machine then he will end up going over ... will be supported over there as an icon against 'the man' and after a period will get repatriated. He is unlikely to get a job over there as he did not doing anything that special, and will probably come back here a bit more aware of what is going on in the world.

    (I would like to say that I have no issue with US, US Citizens, many of the ideals held by the US Constitution but I do think that some people make stupid mistakes and decisions over there on a par with the ones made over here ... and I'll be vocal about the stuff over here too. Go on ... ask me why it is easier for someone to be hit by the civil law of Trespass than the criminal law of Harassment!)
    Last edited by GrumbleDook; 17th January 2010 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Spelling - slpdexia stirkes!

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  5. #64

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    I wonder if Roman Polanski will use the 'Asperger's Syndrome card ? It certainly seems quite a good one to hold doesn't it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Disabilities are not excuses ... there is no such thing as an excuse in law. There are mitigating factors for defence (or acquittal) and these can either help prosecution services decided whether it will go to trial or not, and when at trial they will help the jury decide whether they are innocent or guilty, or they will help in the sentencing if it is a guilty verdict. The constant use of it is almost counter productive. An offence is alleged ... and should be dealt with as appropriately as possible.

    Saying that all mental health considerations should be considered *during the trial* and if necessary *during the sentencing and subsequent incarceration*.
    I don't think anyone is saying he should be excused because of his disability. What they (and I) are saying is that his disability should preclude his extradition (well, that should be one of the reasons). Then that same condition should be presented, as you say, during trial.

    I'll be vocal about the stuff over here too. Go on ... ask me why it is easier for someone to be hit by the civil law of Trespass than the criminal law of Harassment!)
    I'd disagree with that... The law changes within the last decade have made harassment a simple charge to apply. Even for cases which are plainly not what normal people would call harassment (eg. calling 2 different people within the same company, after being told not to call by the first person).

  7. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    <snip about grumbledook saying it is easy to deal with trespass than harassment>
    I'd disagree with that... The law changes within the last decade have made harassment a simple charge to apply. Even for cases which are plainly not what normal people would call harassment (eg. calling 2 different people within the same company, after being told not to call by the first person).
    When you have having difficulties of people coming to your property and harassing you (eg stalkers, etc) then it is easier to deal with them under civil law to restrict them from entering your property in future. To deal with them more harshly you need to take action under criminal proceedings. Trespass is easier but the penalties are lower ... trespass was referred to earlier so that is why I used it as an example of the use of an easier civil law to deal with an issue rather than a complex criminal law. When talking about harassment in the workplace then constructive dismissal is easier that harassment.

    There are lots of little examples like this (noise abatement orders rather disturbing the peace, H&S rather than criminal negligence ... it goes on) and the people that like this are lawyers. It means that they will attempt to deal with an issue under civil law and should it not deal with the issue then they will help move forward with criminal proceedings. The same way if a criminal case fails you still have a number of civil law options.

  8. #67

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    When you have having difficulties of people coming to your property and harassing you (eg stalkers, etc) then it is easier to deal with them under civil law to restrict them from entering your property in future. To deal with them more harshly you need to take action under criminal proceedings. Trespass is easier but the penalties are lower ... trespass was referred to earlier so that is why I used it as an example of the use of an easier civil law to deal with an issue rather than a complex criminal law. When talking about harassment in the workplace then constructive dismissal is easier that harassment.

    There are lots of little examples like this (noise abatement orders rather disturbing the peace, H&S rather than criminal negligence ... it goes on) and the people that like this are lawyers. It means that they will attempt to deal with an issue under civil law and should it not deal with the issue then they will help move forward with criminal proceedings. The same way if a criminal case fails you still have a number of civil law options.
    I see where you're coming from, what with civil cases being 'balance of probabilities' and criminal cases being 'beyond reasonable doubt'. However, harassment laws are now written in such a way to be able to get an injunction against harassment within civil courts, and then if it is breached it would be a breach of criminal law. (Getting those injunctions is pretty easy in my experience, there is even a solicitors group who specialise in doing it with minimal evidence, and doing it within a matter of hours in some cases).

  9. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Disabilities are not excuses ... there is no such thing as an excuse in law. There are mitigating factors for defence (or acquittal) and these can either help prosecution services decided whether it will go to trial or not, and when at trial they will help the jury decide whether they are innocent or guilty, or they will help in the sentencing if it is a guilty verdict. The constant use of it is almost counter productive. An offence is alleged ... and should be dealt with as appropriately as possible.

    Saying that all mental health considerations should be considered *during the trial* and if necessary *during the sentencing and subsequent incarceration*.

    I have two problems with what has happened though ... and these are my personal opinion (formed through understanding of a variety of facts and experiences, and happy to explain these to support my opinion).

    1 - I hate the one-way rule. Sorry, but no country should be able to force another to give up a subject / citizen and not be able to do the same in return. Damned hypocritical for somewhere that politically aligns itself to freedom and fairness. Until this is addressed then I would not hand him over. Nothing to do with his condition, the offence or anything else. I know there are loopholes, political reasons and so on ... but sod it Gary, do a runner to France if you have to.

    2 - The blame game that has gone on over this about who is at fault, who left doors ajar, who made to cock-up ... it is a bit lame. NSA guidance on security was not followed. Does anyone have any information on the inquiry about who was disciplined over this? NSA have not changed their guidance over hardening due to to the incident and why was that? Because if someone had done their job in the first place then a certain amount of this would be moot. The attempted access would probably have been dealt with under CMA and everyone would have been happy ...

    But hey ... short of doing a runner to somewhere that will stick to fingers up to the US machine then he will end up going over ... will be supported over there as an icon against 'the man' and after a period will get repatriated. He is unlikely to get a job over there as he did not doing anything that special, and will probably come back here a bit more aware of what is going on in the world.
    skipping lightly back on to the topic:


    In brilliant Grumbledook fashion he states the case clearly and sensibly: As far as I can see - 'nuff said'

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  11. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post

    1 - I hate the one-way rule. Sorry, but no country should be able to force another to give up a subject / citizen and not be able to do the same in return. Damned hypocritical for somewhere that politically aligns itself to freedom and fairness. Until this is addressed then I would not hand him over. Nothing to do with his condition, the offence or anything else. I know there are loopholes, political reasons and so on ... but sod it Gary, do a runner to France if you have to.
    Don't like the extradition treaty signed between the US and UK after 9/11? Elect new leaders and get them to change or rewrite the treaty.
    Just as the blind phone phreaker [ Joe Engressia - a.k.a "The Whistler" ] finally got some jail time, no sympathy should be given to Gary McKinnon, using a difficult to diagnose, opinion-based rather than science-based "condition" of Aspergers, diagnosed AFTER getting caught. He understands what he did? He's not mentally retarded or "challenged"? Then convict and sentence. As long as possible. And with a lonely, tall, fat, linebacker of a cell mate to keep Gary warm at night.
    Also wondering what right Gary McKinnon has to crack US government and military computers and express his opinion of the US in messages left on those computers, regardless of any cover story of little green men. If you don't like the possible jail sentence involved in breaking into US military or government computers. Don't do the crime.
    Last edited by mattx; 17th January 2010 at 10:07 PM.

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  13. #70
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    maybe he is actually an alien and the reason the US are going so crazy over it, is because they know this and want to bring him to their country to do experiments. 0_o


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    Many a true word spoken in jest.

    ~I say we check his DNA before deportation~



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