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General Chat Thread, McKinnon: The longest ever game of pass the parcel in General; I think this is crazy, i've followed this for ages now (the story, not this thread). I have watched how ...
  1. #46
    dwhyte85's Avatar
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    I think this is crazy, i've followed this for ages now (the story, not this thread).

    I have watched how DarkMarket fraudsters have got away with next to no punishment, probably with e-gold & liberty reserve accounts bursting with laundered funds/sale of illegal goods.

    Although Gary had compromised the systems did he actually do anything wrong other than point out a clear inability to protect government systems? If it was the case things were deleted they'd of course have a robust data backup procedure, if it was the case he could have read things they could have had permissions set!

    As I read it... he literally just dialled in, and went to a server UNC and went to the hidden share. Whether or not it was a trap... debatable, I'd imagine it was more a neglectful IT guy...

    Although he was acting as a blackhat, based on what's said... he was just being a bit annoying rather than malicious. Aspergers or not, this has gone to far - the punishment doesn't fit the crime, IMO at least.

  2. Thanks to dwhyte85 from:

    localzuk (17th January 2010)

  3. #47

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    dwhyte,

    Your emollient tone has gotten me purring like a kitten. I must leave now. This environment is corrosive to the Iconoclast.

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    On second thoughts, one last growl before bedtime:

    "In fact just 12 days after the attacks that left more than 3000 Americans dead, McKinnon, pursuing his belief that the Yanks had hidden extra-terrestrial beings in the computers at a Naval Munitions Yard, returned just to double check in the corners"

    Would you grant me, "Annoying and Malicious"?

    "the Indictment charges that on Sept. 23, 2001, McKinnon again broke into the NWS (Naval Weapons Station) Earle computer network by accessing the previously-installed RemotelyAnywhere software and using the stolen passwords."

    "During this intrusion into the network, McKinnon allegedly caused approximately $290,431 in damage to NWS Earle by deleting computer files needed to power up some of the computers on the network, deleting computer logs that documented his intrusion into the network, and compromising the security of the network "
    Last edited by Socrates; 17th January 2010 at 01:28 AM. Reason: Edited to add extra Growl

  5. #49

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socrates View Post
    All grammatical reconstructions/corrections are welcome. (Although allow me to do a McKinnon - I am Autistic to the point of being a client of an LDP - so don't get cute about unusual neologisms/behaviour/grammar from me - would you make fun of someone in a wheelchair having trouble negotiating stairs?)

    And allow me to point out your web reading skills seem to need a little polishing: references to source material are all linked.
    Pointing out something is not the same as making fun. The reason I missed some things is down to the structure. It is difficult to follow, that's all I mean. Also, if you are so against McKinnon using his Asperger's as an explanation of his behaviour, then you have no grounds to bring yours up here. It would be hypocritical.

    ie "With the likely three year sentence" is referenced here with the words of the first prosecutor.

    Code:
    http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9111981/Former_prosecutor_UFO_hack_looked_like_terrorist_attack?taxonomyId=82&pageNumber=2
    (Also linked to the Wired article that references the Federal sentencing guidelines).

    But of course if you and Google are the greater authority...
    Why must you resort to this sort of childish behaviour. Going on about his 'mummy', making out I know nothing because I point out what the actual law states.

    Just because someone says he may get 3-5 years does not remove the possibility of a lot longer. The law is clear on it, and the judge is perfectly capable of presenting a sentence up to the 70 years possible.

    And the estimates of damage are from the Indictment... For example at the Weapons Station, a week of downtime for 300 computers, and restricted availability of services for a further 3 weeks was costed by the Yanks at $290,431.
    A week of down time for 300 computers. I've had that happen at our school. Ok, it was 200 computers, but those machines were back up and running within 7 days. Backups were available for each type, and they were reimaged with ease, by me alone. ok, the military may have more complex needs but the fact remains, they should have had backups and better security.

    This equals $34.58 per computer, per day. Tell me, if your school network got hacked by a stoned, unemployed McKinnon - would you be able to get a better deal for a replacement?
    Why would they need a replacement? Get the backups out...

    Being so au fait with Google I'll leave you to ferret out the details of the discussions about facilitating his speedy repatriation that have already taken place...
    The discussion of repatriation has only been brought up as a form of bribery - 'come to the USA admit guilt and you'll get a minimal sentence, which you'll serve most of in the UK. If you don't we'll throw the book at you, and then the bookcase, followed by the library, brick by brick'.

  6. #50

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeMarchand View Post
    I'm pretty sure that I read that he used to be a systems administrator, suggesting that not only was he presumably a bit more advanced than your average "12 year old" but that he seemed to be fairly compos mentis at the time. Strangely, his "Aspergers's" was only diagnosed after his alleged offences were discovered. Still, I guess that more people would have sympathy for that diagnosis than if he tried to hang his crimes on his being stoned at the time.

    BTW, if he was "only looking for UFO evidence" why was he leaving those bizarre messages/rants?
    The skills he used to access the machines were akin to hacker kiddy skills - UNC paths, with default admin passwords, and remote installing a remote control program. Nothing amazing from what I can see.

    My guess would be that he thought that leaving the messages would leave some form of 'stop withholding information' message to the US govt. But the only person who could answer that is McKinnon.

  7. #51

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    Thumbs down

    The 2003 one way extradition law requires 'suspicion' of terrorism (probable cause if you are a US citizen). Unless you you follow the American definition: 'everything is terrorism' and ignore the court documents claims of what he is actually charged with: several counts of computer fraud.

    The crime was a breach of the computer misuse act in the UK. He has not been charged by the CPS. Why everyone (including our government) is pandering to calls for erosion of national soverienty is beyond me (well its not, but it 'll save a bit rant).

    Lucky it was him that walked through that open door, because someone with more malicious intent could have done some real damage. The US is trying to blow this out of proportion because once again they got caught with their pants down.... once again. Gary stated stated many documented facts in his 'rants', facts that dont like to be heard because they cause embaressment to the system and go against the PR, read the facts people.

    Disgusting subtlety in 'the new republic' republishing the 'hang gary' picture. GTF .
    Last edited by Theblacksheep; 17th January 2010 at 11:24 AM.

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  9. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    The skills he used to access the machines were akin to hacker kiddy skills - UNC paths, with default admin passwords, and remote installing a remote control program. Nothing amazing from what I can see.
    Hmmm... possibly: but I'm pretty sure that most 12-yr olds, if asked to hack into the US Military's network, wouldn't have a clue where to even begin. Besides which, McKinnon blatantly knew what he was doing, and knew that it was wrong:

    ‘What I did wasn't very clever. There were slightly lower-than-expected lines of defence. I searched for blank passwords, and wrote a tiny Perl script that tied together other people's programs that search for blank passwords, so you could scan 65,000 machines in just over eight minutes. There was a permanent tenancy of foreign hackers. You could run a command when you were on the machine that showed connections from all over the world, check the IP address to see if it was another military base or whatever, and it wasn't.’
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    My guess would be that he thought that leaving the messages would leave some form of 'stop withholding information' message to the US govt. But the only person who could answer that is McKinnon.
    “US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days? It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand-down on September 11 last year . . . I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels.”
    Not sure how that ties in with your theory.

    Anyway, what about the convenient way that his "Asperger's" only manifested after his alleged crimes? I found the quote from his brief:

    Why aren't they stopping the extradition of a man who is clearly vulnerable and who on the accepted evidence suffers from Asperger's?
    My italics to highlight the overly(?) careful way that she describes her client's condition.

  10. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Pointing out something is not the same as making fun. The reason I missed some things is down to the structure. It is difficult to follow, that's all I mean.
    Is an essay's macroscopic structure Grammar? Please tell me. I'm a keen student of English - either stop criticising or start offering constructive/useful/usable feedback. And what's so difficult about following a hyperlink in a different colour? Are you colourblind? - perhaps in future I'll put them in bold with an underlined -hover..

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Also, if you are so against McKinnon using his Asperger's as an explanation of his behaviour, then you have no grounds to bring yours up here. It would be hypocritical..
    Do we have an Irony deficit?

    I will henceforth use [irony] tags.

    Why must I resport to childish behaviour ?- well, what's sauce for McKinnon is Gravy to Socrates.

    They should have had backups and better security
    I quite agree - but if you leave your front door unlocked, this is unlikely to be allowed as mitigation for an offence of burglary.
    Last edited by Socrates; 17th January 2010 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Added hyperlink sentence and "?"

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    bossman (18th January 2010)

  12. #54

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socrates View Post
    I quite agree - but if you leave your front door unlocked, this is unlikely to be allowed as mitigation for an offence of burglary.
    Using that same analogy - if you leave your garden gate open, someone who comes on to your property is not a trespasser.

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    Disgusting subtlety in 'the new republic' republishing the 'hang gary' picture. GTF .
    What's GTF?

    And did you miss me supporting Liberty's campaign to save McKinnon, with this picture of an "Extradition Watch" plane inserted Umm... You know where?

    #NOT WORK SAFE# THE NEW REPUBLIC: Autism 2010 - A Look Forward #NOT WORK SAFE#

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theblacksheep View Post
    Lucky it was him that walked through that open door, because someone with more malicious intent could have done some real damage.
    I sorry but he may of accessed networks via poorly configured security settings, but he still hacked to gain access. For example you could have 2 homes whose front doors are protected a lock that out of the packet can be picked with a paper clip, but when configured needs a key and a code etc. I goggle about the lock and find out a "default setting" is open to being picked with a paperciip. I then break into the house with the weaker configuered lock. Then when I get caught I blame the home owner for having not configuringthe lock correctly to keep me out and say the voices in my head told me to do it so It's not my fault at all.

    He deserves what's coming to him.

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    dwhyte85's Avatar
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    I can't understand your eAttitude, socrates - alot of IT guys agree that this has gone to far, of course you're entitled to an opinion... but respect ours too.

    Simply put, Gary got into the US systems and made them look inept. If Gary could do it how many trained terrorists could have done this, do they even know if other people got access?

    What ever the US say... it has to be taken with a pinch of salt, what evidence do we have it is true? It is more likely to be a campaign for retribution to hide the fact they were slack on setting up machines & made to look silly, the US have quite clearly tried to make an example... when truth is they don't know if anyone else had access during this time - they were slack.

    Any damage he could have done remotely shouldn't have been possible, think of it in terms of a teacher on VPN... any damage they do is my fault as the network manager, they should not have access to cause any problems. Any damage done should have been repairable simply from back-ups.

    If he had installed remote software, how on earth didn't they notice it! Most keep an icon in the system tray, if not software should be used to monitor apps installed/removed on these clearly very important machines. If it was a trojan they would have surely found with AV.

    He looked for unset admin accs, how is this stealing passwords, did he find a passwords.txt file on the root of the machines he got on?

    Let's face it the US messed up, they did not give the necessary care into setting up systems which potentially held sensitive information & they want a scape goat, they want to pass the buck and blame Gary for the clear inability to setup the network securely.

    In terms of cost... to deny remote access is quite simple, netstat -b would have shown the connections and app running, netstat -n would have shown IP and ports.

    How about people running botnets and have government laptops infected, are they to get the same treatment? I doubt it.


    The point is... does the crime warrant the punishment? In my opinion no it doesn't - people do far worse on-line and get away with tiny sentences (if any), if we think about it in-terms of cost, google darkmarket fraudsters... look at what they had done and how much it cost then review the sentences.
    Last edited by dwhyte85; 17th January 2010 at 12:39 PM.

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    witch (17th January 2010)

  17. #58

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    Flex muscle on uk man, bow to chinese.

    Quote Originally Posted by RingOfFlame View Post
    He deserves what's coming to him.
    The US deserves everything it gets for its murderous policies. Sweeping moronic statements aren't nice are they?

    If someone attempts to hack the gov from your school network. The school network was the place where the crime was commited. The UK Crown Prosecution Service have not charged him.

    The US are trying to do him on FRAUD. Considering the financial turmoil over the last few years they should look a danm sight closer to home for some decent fraud charges. This is pathetic.... the people securing those computers should be ashamed of themselves, knowing the US, they've probably got a promotion.

    Is the US going to extradite the chinese government for hacking google? LOL.
    Last edited by Theblacksheep; 17th January 2010 at 01:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwhyte85 View Post
    I can't understand your eAttitude, socrates - alot of IT guys agree that this has gone to far, of course you're entitled to an opinion... but respect ours too....

    How about people running botnets and have government laptops infected, are they to get the same treatment? I doubt it...


    The point is... does the crime warrant the punishment? In my opinion no it doesn't - people do far worse on-line and get away with tiny sentences (if any), if we think about it in-terms of cost, google darkmarket fraudsters... look at what they had done and how much it cost then review the sentences.
    I do very much respect your opinion.

    My position is informed by the fact that I have Asperger's Syndrome [AS] too - and I see AS being used as an excuse and a justification for avoiding justice and that makes me angry.

    Spammers and Botnet herders deserve equal attention from the Yanks. But unfortunately the Yanks have Gary's address, not theirs - I've no doubt if they did, they'd be getting a ride to the US too.

    What do you think the penalty should be for say, just the Weapons Station 'incident'?

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    Lucky it was him that walked through that open door,
    I reckon there's a high probability that he was just one of a long line of "visitors" and he got tagged for it because he was the "lowest hanging fruit", so to speak.

    if you leave your garden gate open, someone who comes on to your property is not a trespasser.
    I note that trespassing is of course a civil offence i.e. no prison.

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