+ Post New Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 32
General Chat Thread, BBC Muddies the climate change debate waters in General; BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | What happened to global warming? Well, if it means more snow in winter ...
  1. #1

    Dos_Box's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Preston, Lancashire
    Posts
    9,216
    Thank Post
    657
    Thanked 2,249 Times in 1,031 Posts
    Blog Entries
    23
    Rep Power
    669

    BBC Muddies the climate change debate waters

    BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | What happened to global warming?

    Well, if it means more snow in winter I shall be happy!

    *A return to 'real' winters!

    Oh, and here's a graph!


  2. #2

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,132
    Thank Post
    522
    Thanked 2,542 Times in 1,976 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    876
    Well done to the BBC for taking a small sample of data and trying to extrapolate it over a longer trend! I'll do the same by taking just the summer of 2007 spike and coming to the conclusion that we're all going to die!!!

    Seriously though, the only way you can take climate change into account is over a long time. ie. over 100 years etc...
    Last edited by localzuk; 13th October 2009 at 08:11 AM.

  3. #3

    broc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    2,046
    Thank Post
    104
    Thanked 401 Times in 265 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    I think climate science is still in its infancy......

    Meanwhile,

    My personal view is that it has got to be good for the planet & everyone on it to cut down on pollution and manage the consumption of fossil fuels while looking for energy sources that are clean & sustainable.

    The problem I continually wrestle with is; does it cost more (in energy & pollution) to switch to using 'green' products rather than continue to use older less 'green' products?

    For example, my house is well insulated, with cavity wall insulation, about 30cm loft insulation, double glazing, but has a 30 year old central heating boiler, albeit with modern controls such as thermostatic radiator valves, zone valves etc. Would I (and the planet) have been better off if I had changed the boiler every 10 years (life expectancy of modern boiler)? We would be on our 4th boiler now.....

  4. #4

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,132
    Thank Post
    522
    Thanked 2,542 Times in 1,976 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    876
    One thing I forgot to say is this - the term 'global warming' has pretty much been abandoned recently, and the term 'climate change' used more appropriately.

    Climate change is more appropriate as it covers what is actually happening. Namely the switch from a more gradual seasonal variation of temperature and weather patterns (and with it the rarity of extreme weather) to a more wild and extreme change like we seem to now have. Look at that graph - look at the variation in peaks and troughs. Look at it from a more 'personal' point of view. We seem to have gone straight from summer to winter (we have frost here today, in October). Think of the stronger storms, the increased flooding, the snow etc... These are not traditionally normal weather patterns for the UK.

    All are climate change examples.

  5. #5
    mortstar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    341
    Thank Post
    13
    Thanked 29 Times in 18 Posts
    Rep Power
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    I think climate science is still in its infancy......

    Meanwhile,

    My personal view is that it has got to be good for the planet & everyone on it to cut down on pollution and manage the consumption of fossil fuels while looking for energy sources that are clean & sustainable.

    The problem I continually wrestle with is; does it cost more (in energy & pollution) to switch to using 'green' products rather than continue to use older less 'green' products?

    For example, my house is well insulated, with cavity wall insulation, about 30cm loft insulation, double glazing, but has a 30 year old central heating boiler, albeit with modern controls such as thermostatic radiator valves, zone valves etc. Would I (and the planet) have been better off if I had changed the boiler every 10 years (life expectancy of modern boiler)? We would be on our 4th boiler now.....
    Exactly...!

    So many times, especially on internet forums, you see debates on Global Warming/Climate Change turn in to a troll-fest with those who evangelically believe in the affect or those who do not (much like any other debate on the internet - though this one is usually more vitriolic).

    But surely the point is, which ever side of the debate you are on (personally I do believe that man is having a massive affect on the climate), that we should be taking great care with our finite resources and try and find better ways to live that are not so near-sighted as they are now.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    West Midlands
    Posts
    410
    Thank Post
    73
    Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts
    Rep Power
    44
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Look at that graph - look at the variation in peaks and troughs.
    ...and yet barely an hour ago you called it "a small sample of data "!

    Typical climate change alarmist methods - picking and choosing data to suit your arguement

    mb

  7. #7

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,132
    Thank Post
    522
    Thanked 2,542 Times in 1,976 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    876
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    ...and yet barely an hour ago you called it "a small sample of data "!

    Typical climate change alarmist methods - picking and choosing data to suit your arguement

    mb
    No, I was using it as a random example, not as proof of my statement... I don't have more data at hand, but have seen a much larger representation of the data for the last 60 years, and it is as I said. I'll see if I can find it at some point, if I remember.

    My point was more down to using what we have experienced as an example instead.

  8. #8

    Theblacksheep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    In a house.
    Posts
    1,946
    Thank Post
    139
    Thanked 291 Times in 211 Posts
    Rep Power
    193
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Seriously though, the only way you can take climate change into account is over a long time. ie. over 100 years etc...
    Yep, I love the way they ignore all the geological data that doesnt suit the fear of 'global warming', like temp spikes in the 12-1400s... or the 60s when the propaganda was about global cooling.

    'Climate change' is more appropriate because its a 'catch all', even the natural cycles. People can easily argue 'global warming', who can argue with 'climate change'?

  9. #9

    sparkeh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    7,015
    Thank Post
    1,362
    Thanked 1,769 Times in 1,191 Posts
    Blog Entries
    22
    Rep Power
    530
    Wow interesting.

    This kind of thing really reinforces my belief that we don't really know whats going on. The whole debate has become entrenched in politics with either side wheeling out 'evidence' to support their claims and I am yet to be convinced by either side.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    West Midlands
    Posts
    410
    Thank Post
    73
    Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts
    Rep Power
    44
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    My point was more down to using what we have experienced as an example instead.
    Professor Bob Carter uses empirical data (not bogus "models") and somewhat larger timescales (be sure to watch all four parts)...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLkze-9GcI"]YouTube - Climate Change - Is CO2 the cause? - Pt 1 of 4[/ame]

    mb

  11. #11

    Dos_Box's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Preston, Lancashire
    Posts
    9,216
    Thank Post
    657
    Thanked 2,249 Times in 1,031 Posts
    Blog Entries
    23
    Rep Power
    669
    An intersting point that I've seen elsewhere is that whilst we don't have the long term data to really know what is going on, a project has use dthe logs from ships going back 300 years, as most ships had quite accurate thermometers and weather observations and were logged with great accuracy and apparently (I'll have to find the link) there has been no discernable change in that time. I admit though that we do have to find cleaner fuels and alternative power generation methods as we simply cannot go on using limited resources, but I am still a bit sceptical about some elements of climate change. One large volcanic eruption can do far more damage than the human race can, and this happens quite often for example.

  12. #12


    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,414
    Thank Post
    184
    Thanked 356 Times in 285 Posts
    Rep Power
    149
    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    I admit though that we do have to find cleaner fuels and alternative power generation methods as we simply cannot go on using limited resources, but I am still a bit sceptical about some elements of climate change. One large volcanic eruption can do far more damage than the human race can, and this happens quite often for example.
    I must say my thinking is along the same lines. So we've got 60 years of data and atleast 10 of those is in a downwards trend. Not particulaly persusive evidence to me tbh, as lets be right about it 60 years is nothing.


    Regardless it always comes back to the same thing for me; when it comes down to it no-one really wants to be green, and none of these "green initiatives" are actually green.

    Who wants wind turbines or nuclear power stations in their back garden?

    If we all turned to electric or hybrid cars where exactly does the electricity come from; Coal and gas power stations, yep very green. And as we all know these "green" cars are massively costly to make (in green terms). And my personal fav; "Everyone get a brand new car every 10 years" coz thats really green.

    If everyone recycled properly, as in washing out all your bottles and cans before putting them in the bin, how much exactly is it going to cost in water, both heating of and cleaning etc?

    The most recylced thing in the world, the carrier bag, is now made so thin that it can only be used once, and when carrying bottles you have to double bag it now. Yep, very green again.


    Now im not against being green, i just see all of these schemes as substanceless propergander designed to make the masses feel like they are saving the world when infact all they are doing is making it easy for the government to tax us more.

  13. #13

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,132
    Thank Post
    522
    Thanked 2,542 Times in 1,976 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    876
    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    Who wants wind turbines or nuclear power stations in their back garden?
    I do. I want wind turbines.

    If we all turned to electric or hybrid cars where exactly does the electricity come from; Coal and gas power stations, yep very green. And as we all know these "green" cars are massively costly to make (in green terms). And my personal fav; "Everyone get a brand new car every 10 years" coz thats really green.
    Electrical energy production is a lot more efficient than local car engines. Most engines manage between 18 and 20% efficiency, with an average steel engine being limited at around 37% efficiency. The average coal power plant manages roughly double that. Not to mention the extra inefficiencies of haulling oil and petrol all around the country to little petrol stations.

    If everyone recycled properly, as in washing out all your bottles and cans before putting them in the bin, how much exactly is it going to cost in water, both heating of and cleaning etc?
    Items do not need washing before recycling - this is down to fussy collectors disliking it. Recycling bottles involves melting them - with fire... You think the fire will complain about residue? No.

    The most recylced thing in the world, the carrier bag, is now made so thin that it can only be used once, and when carrying bottles you have to double bag it now. Yep, very green again.
    Stop using plastic carrier bags then. Get some of those fairtrade cotton ones which will last years.

    Now im not against being green, i just see all of these schemes as substanceless propergander designed to make the masses feel like they are saving the world when infact all they are doing is making it easy for the government to tax us more.
    No, it is pretty obvious you are quite anti-green. You just don't realise it. You see any form of inteference in the way you live your life as the government threatening you. You safely ignored all the positives of the above schemes.

  14. #14


    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,414
    Thank Post
    184
    Thanked 356 Times in 285 Posts
    Rep Power
    149
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I do. I want wind turbines.
    And you are in a tiny minority and you know it.


    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Electrical energy production is a lot more efficient than local car engines. Most engines manage between 18 and 20% efficiency, with an average steel engine being limited at around 37% efficiency. The average coal power plant manages roughly double that. Not to mention the extra inefficiencies of haulling oil and petrol all around the country to little petrol stations.
    You conveiniantly forgot about the inefficiencies of transporting electricity.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Items do not need washing before recycling - this is down to fussy collectors disliking it. Recycling bottles involves melting them - with fire... You think the fire will complain about residue? No.
    Who likes it isnt the point, it is supposed to be done as part of the process, but again you know that too.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Stop using plastic carrier bags then. Get some of those fairtrade cotton ones which will last years.
    We do have some thanks but i dont always carry them round in my pocket, and i use carrier bags for rubbish too.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No, it is pretty obvious you are quite anti-green. You just don't realise it. You see any form of inteference in the way you live your life as the government threatening you. You safely ignored all the positives of the above schemes.
    And its pretty obvious you are incapible of having a reasoned debate when it comes to green issues.

  15. #15

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,132
    Thank Post
    522
    Thanked 2,542 Times in 1,976 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    876
    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    And you are in a tiny minority and you know it.
    I don't know it, it has not been put to a vote...

    You conveiniantly forgot about the inefficiencies of transporting electricity.
    Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 7.2% in 1995 http://climatetechnology.gov/library...ions-1-3-2.pdf

    So, power stations are still a lot more efficient.

    Who likes it isnt the point, it is supposed to be done as part of the process, but again you know that too.
    No, it is not 'supposed' to be done! That was my point. Recycling glass involves melting glass, which burns off stuff still on bottles etc... Same with metals. The only one which needs clean input materials is paper. The cleaning part is simply down to fussy collectors and bureaucrats.

    We do have some thanks but i dont always carry them round in my pocket, and i use carrier bags for rubbish too.
    You not carrying them around in your pocket is only 1 person's fault... I would recommend buying recycled bin bags for bin bags instead of carrier bags... Biodegradable ones at that.

    And its pretty obvious you are incapible of having a reasoned debate when it comes to green issues.
    No, you came into the debate claiming a lot of spurious things. Most of them simply wrong. I corrected you on them (with actual figures, you can double check them if you wish) and now you have claimed I can't debate.

SHARE:
+ Post New Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Pirate Bay sale hits rough waters
    By FN-GM in forum General Chat
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 24th August 2009, 12:57 PM
  2. [Pics] The Current Financial Climate - The Origin
    By RabbieBurns in forum Jokes/Interweb Things
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 9th January 2009, 03:09 PM
  3. Ultimate debate: CC3/4 vs Rest of the World
    By webman in forum Network and Classroom Management
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 29th May 2008, 12:27 PM
  4. urgent: Focus on Science Climate Change
    By russdev in forum Educational Software
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 5th February 2008, 12:09 AM
  5. The big debate?
    By StewartKnight in forum Hardware
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 3rd August 2005, 02:15 PM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •