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General Chat Thread, BBC Muddies the climate change debate waters in General; Originally Posted by localzuk I don't know it, it has not been put to a vote... Transmission and distribution losses ...
  1. #16


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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I don't know it, it has not been put to a vote...



    Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 7.2% in 1995 http://climatetechnology.gov/library...ions-1-3-2.pdf

    So, power stations are still a lot more efficient.



    No, it is not 'supposed' to be done! That was my point. Recycling glass involves melting glass, which burns off stuff still on bottles etc... Same with metals. The only one which needs clean input materials is paper. The cleaning part is simply down to fussy collectors and bureaucrats.



    You not carrying them around in your pocket is only 1 person's fault... I would recommend buying recycled bin bags for bin bags instead of carrier bags... Biodegradable ones at that.



    No, you came into the debate claiming a lot of spurious things. Most of them simply wrong. I corrected you on them (with actual figures, you can double check them if you wish) and now you have claimed I can't debate.
    Im sorry but you are just being plain silly now.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I do. I want wind turbines.
    Me too

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Electrical energy production is a lot more efficient than local car engines. Most engines manage between 18 and 20% efficiency, with an average steel engine being limited at around 37% efficiency. The average coal power plant manages roughly double that. Not to mention the extra inefficiencies of haulling oil and petrol all around the country to little petrol stations.
    He does have a point about delivering it though,



    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Items do not need washing before recycling - this is down to fussy collectors disliking it. Recycling bottles involves melting them - with fire... You think the fire will complain about residue? No.
    This is true and so we need to re-educate the recyclers



    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Stop using plastic carrier bags then. Get some of those fairtrade cotton ones which will last years.
    Absolutely right - these do last a long time and you should carry a couple around at all times - I know it is easier for women - mine's in my handbag - but I also have one or two in the car, and one at work so I can use them if I need to go shopping



    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No, it is pretty obvious you are quite anti-green. You just don't realise it. You see any form of inteference in the way you live your life as the government threatening you. You safely ignored all the positives of the above schemes.
    I think that is a bit harsh - he does have some points but also comes over a bit negatively as well.
    I am concerned about climate change, but more concerned about using up resources, and more importantly, polluting the planet with waste material of whatever sort

    PLEASE can we have a debate rather than a childish argument with insults flying from all sides!!!
    PLEASE read the posts properly and consider the points - no one is 100% right or wrong, and we could have a proper discussion if everyone conceded some points here and there!
    Last edited by witch; 13th October 2009 at 12:00 PM.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    Im sorry but you are just being plain silly now.
    I show you that current power infrastructure comes in at around 30% efficiency (being pessimistic), compared to combustion engines being 18% or less (as I don't have the efficiency figures for haulling fuel all over the place), yet you call me silly?
    Last edited by localzuk; 13th October 2009 at 12:04 PM. Reason: removing silly bit

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Congratulations on such a well thought out response to more facts and figures. I show you that current power infrastructure comes in at around 30% efficiency (being pessimistic), compared to combustion engines being 18% or less (as I don't have the efficiency figures for haulling fuel all over the place), yet you call me silly?
    No i call you silly because you are picking and choosing which parts of my post to read, and also claiming that you are only replying with facts, which apart from 1 point in 1 post, is simply not tha case.

    I don't know it, it has not been put to a vote...
    See, silly.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky View Post
    No i call you silly because you are picking and choosing which parts of my post to read, and also claiming that you are only replying with facts, which apart from 1 point in 1 post, is simply not tha case.
    I replied to every point you made did I not? Please show me any points I missed.

    See, silly.
    I'm not going to fall for such trolling, but I will say that that is how things are done in a democracy - voting.

  6. #21

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    Oh for goodness sake!
    Why is it any sillier than saying 'you are in a minority, and you know it'
    a) you have no data on this
    b) why does being in a minority (if he is) make it apparently worth sneering at?

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by jinnantonnix View Post
    Be careful when measuring efficiencies vs carbon emissions. Two different power sources may have the same efficiency, but may have different amounts of CO2 emissions.

    The only fair way to compare petrol vs electric is to compare the CO2 emissions per mile of comparable transports, and this must go back to the generation of the electricity (power stations & fuel burnt, available power after transmission losses), and in the case of the petrol car the CO2 cost of all the exploration, extraction/drilling, refining, transportation, distribution, and the trip to the petrol station.

    A huge flaw in many arguements is to compare engine efficiency (e.g. Diesel=45%) against the generation losses incurred with charging an electric car. The assumption in many of these comparisons is to compare an already fuelled car vs the losses in generating electricity. I'm thinking Top Gear here, and while it is an entertaining programme, its 'science bits' really do leave a lot to be desired. Clarkson always asks 'where does the electricity come from?', but never asks 'where does the petrol come from?'

    Personally, I'm on the fence. I cycle whenever I can, but I drive if I need to. I try my best (e.g my car is a 13 year old diesel which I've had for over 10 years and I cycle to work every day) but dig a little and you'll find some contradictions in me.

    The mind boggles when it comes to how many variables there are in the climate.
    If your mind needs additional boggling, look up 'global dimming' and the hypothesis that reduced air travel may make matters worse!
    Indeed there are issues to look at when comparing efficiencies. But as yet, all the evidence shows that electric cars are more efficient than petrol. For example, this page does some interesting calculations converting power generation co2 emissions to lbs per mile Electric Car Mileage for Chevy Volt from Equivalent Carbon Dioxide Pollution It varies wildly depending on the company producing it, but that's to be expected as some areas have more older power stations than new etc...

    My view is what is the potential cost of us not doing something which could save us, compared to doing it. It always comes out as more effective to do something for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I show you that current power infrastructure comes in at around 30% efficiency (being pessimistic), compared to combustion engines being 18% or less (as I don't have the efficiency figures for haulling fuel all over the place), yet you call me silly?
    You need to be careful about assuming that the 82% is simply "wasted". In winter the heat generated from an internal combustion engine can be directly used to warm the car. In an electric car, heating has a serious impact on battery life!!

    Also, one the drawbacks of "grid electricity" is that it cannot (easily) be stored, so you have to have sufficient capacity for the worse case scenario - 20 million people all plugging in their cars overnight is going to draw an awful lot of power. This lack of storage also makes wind power a poor option - you can't just "turn on a gale"!

    mb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    You need to be careful about assuming that the 82% is simply "wasted". In winter the heat generated from an internal combustion engine can be directly used to warm the car. In an electric car, heating has a serious impact on battery life!!

    Also, one the drawbacks of "grid electricity" is that it cannot (easily) be stored, so you have to have sufficient capacity for the worse case scenario - 20 million people all plugging in their cars overnight is going to draw an awful lot of power. This lack of storage also makes wind power a poor option - you can't just "turn on a gale"!

    mb
    One of the methods now being trialled for large scale storage is through 'thermic energy storage' via molten salt. This is being used successfully now in Spain (which, obviously, has a lot of sun so it is very efficient for them to use solar for it).

    Other methods involve water movement (ie. 2 reservoirs, energy from solar etc... power pumps which move water up hill, and then when energy is needed, it is recaptured from hydroelectric turbines), flywheel energy storage.

    True, all these ideas are not that great, but this is improving now that more effort is being put into it.

    Also, regarding the waste - this is a good point, but I don't think it really negates the efficiency comparisons. If one is more efficient than the other, that means it would also be more efficient at producing the heat for heating in winter. I'd have thought more insulated cars would be better for this though. We insulate houses, why not cars?

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    I got bored with this thread very early on as I think the whole issue of climate change and impending doom is just a load of codswallop!

    As already stated - a large volcanic eruption or stray asteroid could change the worlds climate in a matter of hours.

    The bottom line is that there are too many scaremongers all trying to make a name for themselves, each trying to produce evidence to outdo the other, and of course they are always right.

    Reality Check - The human race may well cease to exist due to polution, naturally occuring or otherwise, but the planet will recover and live on as it has done for millions of years!

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan-d View Post
    I got bored with this thread very early on as I think the whole issue of climate change and impending doom is just a load of codswallop!

    As already stated - a large volcanic eruption or stray asteroid could change the worlds climate in a matter of hours.

    The bottom line is that there are too many scaremongers all trying to make a name for themselves, each trying to produce evidence to outdo the other, and of course they are always right.

    Reality Check - The human race may well cease to exist due to polution, naturally occuring or otherwise, but the planet will recover and live on as it has done for millions of years!
    Doesn't really help our children and their children though does it? That's the point. Some are not looking far enough forward, some are looking too far forward (of course something cataclysmic could happen), but the climate change 'bunch' are looking at what we are leaving for the next generation or the generation after that.

    Seems as you've just dismissed a massive amount of scientific research as 'codswallop' I don't know if that'll mean anything though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Doesn't really help our children and their children though does it? That's the point. Some are not looking far enough forward, some are looking too far forward (of course something cataclysmic could happen), but the climate change 'bunch' are looking at what we are leaving for the next generation or the generation after that.

    Seems as you've just dismissed a massive amount of scientific research as 'codswallop' I don't know if that'll mean anything though.
    Seems like you are just repeating what others say - may I remind you that Europe was once covered in forest which over a relatively short time was cut down - I don't see any reports of major climate change disasters happening in the 14th century, so where did that CO2 go I wonder? Just a very very small example of historical event that could change the world. In the end, when it's 'time up' for the human race there is stuff all you or anyone else can do about it :P

    What exactly has scientific research actually found out? Oh yea - there are some changes happening! What changes exactly depends on who you listen to and represents data gathered on a minute fraction of time during the Earths history.

    No-one has ever come up with true, hard facts that do not have a counter argument.

    I repeat - It's all codswallop :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Other methods involve water movement (ie. 2 reservoirs, energy from solar etc... power pumps which move water up hill, and then when energy is needed, it is recaptured from hydroelectric turbines), flywheel energy storage.

    True, all these ideas are not that great, but this is improving now that more effort is being put into it.
    I have liked the idea of pumped storage HEP ever since i visited the Ffestiniog power station over forty years ago

    However, more effort isn't being put into it (at least in the UK) because there are very few suitable sites left for large scale facilities. The very impressive Dinorwig power station was built over 20 years ago and many of the others were built in the 50s and 60s.

    Ironically it is countries like China with it's 18GW Three Gorges Dam project (ten times the power of Dinorwig, which itself is the largest in Europe!) that are best suited for hydro electric power (both geographically and politically).

    mb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I have liked the idea of pumped storage HEP ever since i visited the Ffestiniog power station over forty years ago

    However, more effort isn't being put into it (at least in the UK) because there are very few suitable sites left for large scale facilities. The very impressive Dinorwig power station was built over 20 years ago and many of the others were built in the 50s and 60s.

    Ironically it is countries like China with it's 18GW Three Gorges Dam project (ten times the power of Dinorwig, which itself is the largest in Europe!) that are best suited for hydro electric power (both geographically and politically).

    mb
    Ah, that's the thing - the UK might not be, but other countries are. Being a part of the EU, we seem to be moving towards a much more give/take way of using resources now. Like a earlier poster mentioned that we import power from France.

    The EU as a landmass has plenty of space to do all sorts of renewable energy generation. The Med area is good for solar, Scandinavia and the UK are good for wave, tidal and wind generation etc...

    Together we can generate more than enough power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan-d View Post
    Reality Check - The human race may well cease to exist due to polution, naturally occuring or otherwise, but the planet will recover and live on as it has done for millions of years!
    Of course it will at some point, but shouldnt we try and at least make it last a few generations more? Because at the rate things are going, the population is going to end up being reduced a hell of a lot ovet the next few generations, be that from climate change, resource depletion or food scarcity.

    Maybe we are all doomed whatever we try but its still worth trying. If anti-green's get their way we wont change one single thing about the way we live as a species, yet its proven the way we live is not sustainable indefinately.

    Theres no problem if you dont believe or are undecided about man made climate change. No-one can really be 100% sure. But that doesnt mean you have to be anti everything green and dismissive of any change to your lifestyle

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