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General Chat Thread, Possible new tax on the motorist!? in General; ...
  1. #46

    broc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srochford View Post
    It's always going to be the case that people like investment bankers get paid more than bank clerks - whether that's just because they get a higher salary or because they get more perks; it may not be nice but that's just the way people get paid unless you have some kind of communist dictatorship which says "everyone will get paid £xx per hour no matter what job they do"
    I am not arguing against pay differentials, people should be paid what they are worth, but a tax system needs to be seen to be fair and this one clearly is not.

    In the past, it has been suggested this parking tax should apply to all 'free' parking spaces. Let us suppose HM Govt decide to impose the tax on all car parking spaces, including those free spaces provided by out of town supermarkets & shopping centres. So the cost of the parking tax will be levied upon the owners of the site, do the shopkeepers then pass on the cost to all of their shoppers, regardless of how they travel to do their shopping, or do they start charging for their parking places?

    If they only charge car users, it could end up costing them more to collect the tax than the value of the tax itself, so it ends up costing motorists even more & people begin to think twice about how often & where they go shopping.

    On the other hand if they spread the cost to all shoppers by way of price increases is that a fair tax on those who arrive by public transport?

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Why do you carry a G5 powermac arround with you? That makes no sense...
    It was just an example but considering the weight of this thing it has done a fair bit of traveling for a computer. It was at my home and then it moved with me to my new home and then moved with me again to my second new home only for it to be loaned to my sister whilst she did a media course, and so it moved back to my original home. She has now moved out and it now needs to come back to my new new home.

    Not really something you want to do on public transport. But i do occasionally take hardware home from work. For example only the other day i took 2 imacs home to create a test-bed similar to works. I also had an xserve on my back seats that was being transported to it's new location. I move quite a bit of hardware around. Something i could never do if i only had public transport. Not because its late or expensive. Just because it's not really feasible.

    Sometimes you just need a car.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by HodgeHi View Post
    It was just an example but considering the weight of this thing it has done a fair bit of traveling for a computer. It was at my home and then it moved with me to my new home and then moved with me again to my second new home only for it to be loaned to my sister whilst she did a media course, and so it moved back to my original home. She has now moved out and it now needs to come back to my new new home.

    Not really something you want to do on public transport. But i do occasionally take hardware home from work. For example only the other day i took 2 imacs home to create a test-bed similar to works. I also had an xserve on my back seats that was being transported to it's new location. I move quite a bit of hardware around. Something i could never do if i only had public transport. Not because its late or expensive. Just because it's not really feasible.

    Sometimes you just need a car.
    Discussing 'everyday' and 'when I need to move stuff' is a completely different situation. No-one is suggesting people move house without moving vans (the equivalent of moving a computer around in a car).

    What relevance is that to the discussion of people using cars every day to get to work?

  4. #49

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    Because you either use one or the other. Taking into account the cost of running each one individually, you cannot realistically afford to run both at the same time. So if you decide to go the public transport route, chances are you aren't going to be running a car and keeping it at home. So when the time comes that you indeed need a car it won't be there.

    My point is that its a decision, unless you can afford to run both then you are very lucky.

  5. #50

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HodgeHi View Post
    Because you either use one or the other. Taking into account the cost of running each one individually, you cannot realistically afford to run both at the same time. So if you decide to go the public transport route, chances are you aren't going to be running a car and keeping it at home. So when the time comes that you indeed need a car it won't be there.

    My point is that its a decision, unless you can afford to run both then you are very lucky.
    Car rental isn't hugely expensive. Schemes such as the one that is now operating in Minehead make this even easier - you can rent a car for a few hours if needs be!

    If I were to look over the last 3 years, I would say I needed car access half a dozen times. Even if I were to rent a car for a full day each time, I'd be looking at a few hundred quid costs.

  6. #51

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    I would love to use public transport. I absolutely love using the London underground. Admittedly i have only used it a handful of times when i went to the Bett show but i thought is was great, excellent fun. Its just in the West Mids its rubbish. IIRC the metro (tram) from B'ham to Wolvo stops at wednesbury after around 11.30pm at night....Why???

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by HodgeHi View Post
    I would love to use public transport. I absolutely love using the London underground. Admittedly i have only used it a handful of times when i went to the Bett show but i thought is was great, excellent fun. Its just in the West Mids its rubbish. IIRC the metro (tram) from B'ham to Wolvo stops at wednesbury after around 11.30pm at night....Why???
    Seems pretty late to me - shouldn't you be snugly tucked up in bed before that :-)

    I don't know why that happens; in some places there's too little demand to run buses, trains, metros etc after a certain time. In other places there's no night transport because there's never been night transport and that's just the way life is ...

    London does make it easier; tubes run till after midnight and then there are night buses (or 24 hour bus routes) to keep you going after that. The bus past my place runs to/from central London about every 10-15 minutes through the night and costs £1 (although I have a bus pass for work so effectively there's no extra cost)

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by jinnantonnix View Post
    But he owns the car already. It needs to be insured whether he uses it or not. It needs to be taxed whether he uses it or not.

    The crux of this is that public transport should be attractive to car users.

    If public transport is so inconvenient, so expensive and so unreliable, then you can't blame anyone for thinking 'sod it - I'll use the car'.
    He only "owns the car already" because he's bought it!

    You're right to say that public transport should be attractive to car users; the trouble is, that people don't make fair comparisons. They say things like "it costs £5 on the train but it's free if I drive" and it looks stupidly expensive to take the train.

    It isn't easy to to make complete comparisons but to be fair you've got to look at the total cost of travelling by car compared to using public transport (including taxis) and occasionally hiring a car.

    As localzuk says in many places you can now do this for just a few hours while you're moving a large PC (although I've twice recently shifted HP D530 machines on the bus because it was easier than driving in to work)

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by srochford View Post
    It isn't easy to to make complete comparisons but to be fair you've got to look at the total cost of travelling by car compared to using public transport (including taxis) and occasionally hiring a car.
    Compared to buying a mondeo for £300, insuring it for £200 and taxing it for £185, which works out at £2.60 a day plus fuel the train and bus is vastly overpriced.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by srochford View Post
    It's fairly easy to protect resident parking areas by just introducing controlled parking - that doesn't have to mean a huge charge for residents and it brings other benefits because the parking charges pay for someone to walk along the road checking that vehicles are not just parked properly but have valid tax etc.
    now, that's a 'city' solution if ever i saw one. Paying to park in front of your own home.

    There are doubtless those who see the benefit where parking/congestion problems exist on their doorstep. But this just highlights more of the variances that exist when considering deploying such schemes.

    I think city planners are kept busy enough dreaming up where to put one-way steets, pedestrian zones, speed bumps and controlled parking without adding more in the way of dealing with the outcomes from car parking levy's. Oh well, all in a days work for them i suppose.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinnantonnix View Post
    But he owns the car already. It needs to be insured whether he uses it or not. It needs to be taxed whether he uses it or not.

    The crux of this is that public transport should be attractive to car users.

    If public transport is so inconvenient, so expensive and so unreliable, then you can't blame anyone for thinking 'sod it - I'll use the car'.
    as i said, bus travel isn't so much the carrot, as motoring taxes are the stick.

    Where i live some of the main commute routes into the city centre, are already clogged at peak times with buses.....local lines do exist, but some upgrading is required and new local stations need to be opened. Sounds reasonable doesn't it ? We're talking a decade long timescale, which to be fair isn't as long as it sounds [or so i'm told].

    local rail services have been the no-brainer solution for years, rather than packing the roads full with buses that don't go faster than 25mph.

    It's just a shame they didn't think about this 10 years ago when they were content to perisist with papering over the cracks with ideas like bus lanes.

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    now, that's a 'city' solution if ever i saw one. Paying to park in front of your own home.

    There are doubtless those who see the benefit where parking/congestion problems exist on their doorstep. But this just highlights more of the variances that exist when considering deploying such schemes.

    I've just been subjected to this land grab.... no change in the amount of space outside my house.

    2000+ residents all paying £40 a year. Plus all profit from the tickets issued, not a bad deal for the councilors, maybe they deserve another payrise for getting more revenue. Its great when they can come up with false problems and create profit from it.

    We don't have 'congestion' problems, we have greedy council problems.


    p.s. buswankers
    Last edited by Theblacksheep; 3rd August 2009 at 12:31 PM.

  13. #58
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    Doesn't help that when demand on the train network increases due to more people using it, instead of dropping the cost or adding more carriages, they just increase the price to get people back off the trains and into cars.

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    'public' transport run by private companies for shareholders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midget View Post
    they just increase the price to get people back off the trains and into cars.
    Or increase the price because the private company running it has a defacto monopoly.
    Last edited by Theblacksheep; 3rd August 2009 at 12:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srochford View Post
    It isn't easy to to make complete comparisons but to be fair you've got to look at the total cost of travelling by car compared to using public transport (including taxis) and occasionally hiring a car.
    ...and as i said in my previous post - you need to take into account the MASSIVE subsidies that are given to "public" transport (especially as 99% of it is actually private and for profit!). Did you read my link - where failure means more money for the train companies

    Then there are the free upgrades being given to "public" transport in the way of bus-only lanes, bus-biased traffic controls etc. - do they pay extra for their dedicated road-space, i doubt it? Several years ago the city council implemented bus lanes on most of the arterial roads into Birmingham - effectively stealing half of the road space from cars. The strange thing is that they didn't change the timetables, so there were no more buses, no faster a service, but seriously inconvenienced cars!

    If you looked at the true cost, i bet that cars would be cheaper, as well as more convenient, more practical, more flexible, and when the public transport workers decide to go on strike - you can still get home!

    mb

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