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General Chat Thread, Possible new tax on the motorist!? in General; ...
  1. #16

    mac_shinobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HodgeHi View Post
    I think most people miss the main issue, for me it is anyway. The cost of public transport. If (where i live its west midlands travel or was) they know that more and more people are to start using the public transport then the cost doesn't go down. It goes up. So the more people use the public crap the more it'll cost everyone. So no-one wins apart from the owners/council who can say that they met their quota for CO2 emissions.

    When i used to use the buses it cost some like £2.50 for a day-saver. I think that is now nearly double. The last time i purchased one of those was around 2003. That's not that long ago.

    And what about the folks that suffer from travel sickness when on a coach/bus? I, personally only suffer badly on coaches/buses but never in a car

    Anyway, my 2p
    I was using public transport a fair amount especially in my last job role and as you state it only went up price wise and I started paying £19 a week when I first started using it and before I had finished working at my last position it was £22 a week and that was only because I got the weekly saver tickets otherwise I would of been ripped off to no end.

    I think in the end it was about £8 a day or something daft ( £8 *5 ) then multiply that by however many weeks in a month or the weekly saver for £22 a week.

  2. #17
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ric_ View Post
    @torledo: It's very well saying that councils should work it that but we all know how councils work and the logistics of taxing some and not others is a nightmare too - where do draw the line? It's destined to failure and open to abuse.

    Likewise, a £250 tax for me would be unavoidable. The first bus heading in thright direction from my house is about 10am. I hate to think about how many different buses I would need to get too.

    If we had an acceptable public transport system I would say it was fair. As it stands, we don't so we may as well tax people for getting out of bed!
    i had thought that might be a problem. Perhaps schools and other organisations could get relief from this tax, or companies with fewer than X number of staff allocated car parking spaces. So a small business with a bit of car parking infront of the building wouldn't be subject to the tax, and neither would schools or hospitals.

    as for the issue of public transport, yes that's a problem. But then maybe it get's the requisite funding via these taxes to improves serivces......and pigs might fly. Public transport has never been the carrot to get people to stop using their car, the stick of hitting car drivers in the pocket is what gets [some]employees out of their cars thus reducing the number of cars on key commuter routes and in the city centres. Especially parking for parkign near to work.....

    at the city centre college i studied at briefly loads of staff came in on train or bus. It must have cost atleast £5 to park for the day at the onsite carpark...probably nearer £10-£15. Most nearby onstreet parking was subject to pay and display, any free spaces in the vicinity were taken by 8:00 in the morning.

    Even taking the low £5 figure and times it by 200+.......that's over a grand a year just for parking at work.

    By contrast £250 sounds very reasonable in some areas, and it's a tax employees will eventually pay because it's cost-benefit is cheaper than putting up with public transport. Even if it were £500, that's still cheaper than 12 four week bus passes round my neck of the woods. You'd be mad not to implement a tax that companies and individuals will pay.

  3. #18
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HodgeHi View Post
    I think most people miss the main issue, for me it is anyway. The cost of public transport. If (where i live its west midlands travel or was) they know that more and more people are to start using the public transport then the cost doesn't go down. It goes up. So the more people use the public crap the more it'll cost everyone. So no-one wins apart from the owners/council who can say that they met their quota for CO2 emissions.

    When i used to use the buses it cost some like £2.50 for a day-saver. I think that is now nearly double. The last time i purchased one of those was around 2003. That's not that long ago.

    And what about the folks that suffer from travel sickness when on a coach/bus? I, personally only suffer badly on coaches/buses but never in a car

    Anyway, my 2p
    if you were to travel on some of the buses i used to travel on to work, you'd get travel sickness alright but that was more to do with the smell of cigarettes and weed on the top deck of the bus or the smell of what people had trodden on underfoot.

    At times it was a truly horrid experience, and i used to hate how the bus companies would have the gall to put prices up every year....when the service would show little or no noticeable improvement.

    I would however doubt that prices for day tickets between 2003 and now would have doubled, irrespective of the bus company.

    I've long believed in 100% concessionary travel on key routes. That way workers know there is a free commute to work if it involves travel on a key commuter route. That i think would make a significant impact.

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    well all i can say is, if this does happen then i'm going to leave the UK and head to Canada with the wife and kids. as i think we pay too many taxes here already!!!!.....

  5. #20
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    Another thing about this is that most people who would be hit by this tax do not live, or vote, in the towns and cities where there will be charges, so you coulddn't even vote out the party concerned at the next election!!

    Also a parking space is not really a benefit in kind, If so then the next logical step is to tax your desk, your provided IT equipment and so on. And what's the betting that the council workers are exempt from charges, as well as 'essential workers'.

    Heck if my taxes pay for nurses, aren't I essential for providing that service?

    And councils wonder why the centre of cities are emptying of shops and out of town retail and business parks are flourishing!!

    Let's face it all authority in the UK hates cars and drivers, but don't have the guts to say it outright.

    My company wanted to move premises this year, but couldn't find new accomodation due to Johnny 2 Jags rules on parking spaces and square footage.

    As an IT knowledge company we have staff who travel up to 50 miles each way every day, but can't have enough spaces without buying twice as muach square footage as needed. Funny, when the NHS took over the bottom 2 floors of the building we are currently in there was no problem in providing loads of spaces for them.

    Politics, bah humbug!!!

  6. #21

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    This is a bad move from the Government and yet another nail in the coffin in my eyes. Many companies are struggling to get through this recession. Introducing such a tax on companies means they'll simply pass it on to employees or customers, so the prices of services/goods will go up even more.

    At some point VAT will probably increase too, back to 17.5% or possibly upto 18.5% I have read by the end of the year.
    I think the system they have in France is fair. There is no road tax for cars and you pay based on use of the road. It makes perfect sense, whether you use your car once a week or everyday of the week you pay your share.

    What the Government are doing is destroying perfectly good businesses due to lack of available credit, making more people unemployed and as a result the amount of people on benefits is now 2.5 million. It was estimated (from the last recession) unemployment continued to rise 2 years even after the economy started to grow. Only then did employment start to rise, but this time I think the problem will be much longer lasting as people won't have a job to go to.

    Creating a job/business is a lot harder than making someone redundant or closing a business and this Government don't seem to realise this. I doubt very few of them have actually ever run their own business so don't have the experience of expertise to deal with the day to day financial struggles many companies are going through.

  7. 2 Thanks to Michael:

    mac_shinobi (1st August 2009), Oops_my_bad (1st August 2009)

  8. #22

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    If they do that it will be a joke! I could catch a train (as I live outside a station) but it would cost something like £6 a day to go one stop along the line and one back on the return!!! Plus I would have to buy a bike to cycle from the station to work at the other end as its probably a 15/20 minute walk to the station so for the cost its silly, and like a lot of us I am always dipping in and out of my car for tools, parts and spares etc that are my own let alone taking piles of wokr home with me and carrying on working on them so a train is just not convienient. Also the train to catch home is either faaar too early or faar too late really for my needs, we have 8 trains a day on the line so its not that flexible!

  9. #23


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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    At some point VAT will probably increase too, back to 17.5% or possibly upto 18.5% I have read by the end of the year.
    I think the system they have in France is fair. There is no road tax for cars and you pay based on use of the road. It makes perfect sense, whether you use your car once a week or everyday of the week you pay your share.
    Very well said, we already have a similar system. It's called fuel duty.

    Every tax costs money to introduce, every tax payment costs money to process, every non payment costs money to pursue. When we introduce new taxes we need to consider the efficiency of these tax, in this case I'd imagine a relatively high amount of the tax receipts will spent on administering this tax. Are councils going to have to inspect company car parks to see how many people are using them? Will they be using anti terrorist powers to do so?

    I not only don't support this tax on the grounds above. I also oppose it on the grounds that motorists already pay a stupid amount of tax. If the government want people out of their cars, and I don't think they do, they just want their money. Then it's very simple improve public transport, as you do it more people will use public transport and it'll become more sustainable. But at the moment public transport is not only too expensive, it's poorly organised, and not integrated.

  10. Thanks to K.C.Leblanc from:


  11. #24
    Oops_my_bad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john View Post
    Plus I would have to buy a bike to cycle from the station to work at the other end as its probably a 15/20 minute walk to the station so for the cost its silly
    And thats assuming the train operator will allow bikes on board - most will not so makes the whole idea of integrated transport a farce.

  12. #25
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummer_Boy View Post
    Another thing about this is that most people who would be hit by this tax do not live, or vote, in the towns and cities where there will be charges, so you coulddn't even vote out the party concerned at the next election!!

    Also a parking space is not really a benefit in kind, If so then the next logical step is to tax your desk, your provided IT equipment and so on. And what's the betting that the council workers are exempt from charges, as well as 'essential workers'.

    Heck if my taxes pay for nurses, aren't I essential for providing that service?

    And councils wonder why the centre of cities are emptying of shops and out of town retail and business parks are flourishing!!

    Let's face it all authority in the UK hates cars and drivers, but don't have the guts to say it outright.

    My company wanted to move premises this year, but couldn't find new accomodation due to Johnny 2 Jags rules on parking spaces and square footage.

    As an IT knowledge company we have staff who travel up to 50 miles each way every day, but can't have enough spaces without buying twice as muach square footage as needed. Funny, when the NHS took over the bottom 2 floors of the building we are currently in there was no problem in providing loads of spaces for them.

    Politics, bah humbug!!!
    hang on, this article is talking about a levy that councils may be able to impose on companies with 10 or more car parking spaces.

    how does this hit those who don't live and vote in these areas ? infact how does it affect those who don't have the benefit of these currently 'free' parking spaces ?

    And someone else has mentioned VAT. wtf does VAT have anything to do with it.

    I do however undertstand how difficult this scheme will be to work in practice. But parking at work is a benefit in kind when the alternative is to pay money into a parking meter.

  13. #26

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    Very well said, we already have a similar system. It's called fuel duty.
    Not quite a like for like comparison. Fuel duty goes up and down like a yoyo. I'm pretty sure the French motorway charges are pretty much static as they have permanent signs stating the price before you are required to pay.

    In this country they did a similar thing with the M6 relief road, but that's on top of road tax. It is privately owned, but it shouldn't be. This Government do not get it. It must be one or the other, not both!

  14. #27
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K.C.Leblanc View Post
    Very well said, we already have a similar system. It's called fuel duty.

    Every tax costs money to introduce, every tax payment costs money to process, every non payment costs money to pursue. When we introduce new taxes we need to consider the efficiency of these tax, in this case I'd imagine a relatively high amount of the tax receipts will spent on administering this tax. Are councils going to have to inspect company car parks to see how many people are using them? Will they be using anti terrorist powers to do so?

    I not only don't support this tax on the grounds above. I also oppose it on the grounds that motorists already pay a stupid amount of tax. If the government want people out of their cars, and I don't think they do, they just want their money. Then it's very simple improve public transport, as you do it more people will use public transport and it'll become more sustainable. But at the moment public transport is not only too expensive, it's poorly organised, and not integrated.
    taxes are as much about influencing behaviour/discouraging certain behaviours amongst the populace.

    You might aswell say, that the govt. don't want thousands of people to give up smoking.

    Clearly the govt. do want to alter the behaviour of car drivers to a degree and one of the ways to do that is via taxation....it's not all about generating revenues. The govt. haven't worried too much about being able to 'afford' anything have they ? If they want somethign bad enough they'll worry about the accounting later.

    . It's not about getting everyone to ditch their cars in favour of the bus....but the biggest problems as far as congestion occur at peak time commutes to work and the school run. It's a no-brainer to want fewer cars on the road. What i'd like to see is not more buses as a result but more local train services. But that's a 10-20 year programme involving more stations, changes to tracks etc. That's the way to go for commuting to work.

  15. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Not quite a like for like comparison. Fuel duty goes up and down like a yoyo. I'm pretty sure the French motorway charges are pretty much static as they have permanent signs stating the price before you are required to pay
    No it doesn't, don't fuel duty is a fixed amount per litre. The bit that goes up in firstly the cost of the fuel, and with that the VAT imposed on the total price of the fuel and duty.

  16. #29
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    If I didn't want to use my car (which would be great as the 3hrs/day is getting to me now) I could use the train. Lets have a quick comparison.

    I would have to get up at 5am quick shower rush out the door and walk an hour to the trainstation to get the 6:20am train which arrives at 8:30am and then walk 5-10min to work.

    Or I could get up at 6am, have a long shower, eat some toast, read the news, and eventually leave some time before 7am to get there by 8:30am

    and then for the return the train is at 6:20pm so Id have to hang around work for an hour. The train gets to my station at 8:30pm and then I have a 1hour walk home.

    My day is long enough as it is, but 5am to 9:30pm would tip me over the edge.

    And the cost for this fabulous service? £23 a day with a season ticket.

    Currently it costs me ~£15/day in fuel and £5.40 for the bridge. I think I will stick with my car thank you.

    And another thought, even if every person in the company used public transport, the company would still be charged for the parking spaces, so it's not going to encourage people to use public transport at all.

  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midget View Post

    And another thought, even if every person in the company used public transport, the company would still be charged for the parking spaces, so it's not going to encourage people to use public transport at all.
    not if they designated the use of the spaces for something else.

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