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General Chat Thread, Gordon Brown get a verbal assault at the EU in General; Nice! I just wish someone in our parliment would do this! Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible I remeber teh days of ...
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    Dos_Box's Avatar
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    Gordon Brown get a verbal assault at the EU

    Nice! I just wish someone in our parliment would do this!

    Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

    I remeber teh days of Kinnock and Thatcher slugging it out in the commons. It all seems so dull after that!

  2. Thanks to Dos_Box from:

    localzuk (24th March 2009)

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    mb2k01's Avatar
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    +10000 for that man!
    Mb2k01 = born and bread in Yorkshire. Brought up on Labour. Likely to next vote Conservative!

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Wow, if only more politicians would be more blunt like that!

    It is true, Brown is 100% a failure. There is not a single chance I would think of voting Labour in the future. All they have done is ruin the country. As that guy said, other countries save and work during the good years, then spend during the bad. Brown did the opposite!

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    somabc's Avatar
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    I think he could still be re-elected if his plan to make everyones mortgage cheaper works.

    (Just ignore the price of food, imported goods...)

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    Michael's Avatar
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    I was gobsmacked watching that, but it's just ironic Gordon Brown is STILL smiling despite those comments being true. The truth is taxes will have to be put up to pay for all this borrowing and more to the point, even Mervyn King was on record saying (across so many words) the additional injection of money needs to stop.

    It clearly isn't working, unemployment is rising, more people being made bankrupt. It's an awful time and a lot of damage has been done

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    contink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    It clearly isn't working, unemployment is rising, more people being made bankrupt. It's an awful time and a lot of damage has been done
    Can I just note... It isn't working YET...

    Can I also ask just what people think would have happened if just one of the banks had been allowed to go to the wall?

    It doesn't take a genius to realise that total breakdown of the banking system, and inflation on a scale with Zimbabwe would have followed soon after. At least the government had the common sense to insist on stakes in the banks they've "bailed out". It wasn't money for nothing per se..

    And whilst I'm not entirely sure I think Gordon Brown is the man for the job (he just lacks the charisma) I don't see anyone talking about that PR stunt man Blair and the fact that he saw this coming and walked out of the job knowing he'd take none of the blame. He left Brown as a patsy and a fall guy for this mess and now he's wandering around acting like the second coming. Him I can happily despise!



    [rant]
    Ultimately though, what the heck did people expect... a band aid approach and everything would be alright?... it's going to get a LOT worse before it gets better. Unemployment of 4 million I wouldn't be surprised and a real slow down in trade but at the same time you can bet people will start to appreciate their lot a heck of a lot more. Communities will have to come together, getting to know your neighbour, etc... We excel at making the best out of a bad situation and suck when we have it all... like children... spoil them all the time and they take it for granted... Take it away and spoil them a little and they learn to appreciate it.
    [/rant]

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    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Wow, if only more politicians would be more blunt like that!

    It is true, Brown is 100% a failure. There is not a single chance I would think of voting Labour in the future. All they have done is ruin the country. As that guy said, other countries save and work during the good years, then spend during the bad. Brown did the opposite!
    That guy IS a politician. He's a tory MEP.

    I have been very critical of brown, and while i don't object to him being taken to the cleaners like that, there's a number of things you have to consider and look beyond the rhetoric from that greasy tory.

    The financial deficit is the least of the govts worries at the moment. Fiscal stimulus commitments dictates that the govt. will have to run a large deficit. they are not alone.

    Secondly, would the tories not have bailed out the banks ? I've actually heard very few politicians come out and say the bank bailouts were a bad idea. Most of them cling to this notion that the banks HAD to be bailed out [wrong], and then the tories whine about the auto industry getting a bailout [they haven't received one].

    I do object to govt. interventinalism in the economy to win votes for party political reasons. You can't put a party's election needs before the genuine health of the economy. Also, the eurozone looks to be in a pretty bad situaiton, so it's not just the US and UK scrambling.

    I tend to agree with somabc, if broon can reduce or keep people's mortgage payments' low up till the next election they could well vote him back in by the skin of his teeth. Sad but possibly true. But what of mortgage payments if Mervyn king has to raise interest rates as his 'exit strategy' from queasing. The only certainty ahead is the uncertainty.

  9. #8

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contink View Post
    And whilst I'm not entirely sure I think Gordon Brown is the man for the job (he just lacks the charisma) I don't see anyone talking about that PR stunt man Blair and the fact that he saw this coming and walked out of the job knowing he'd take none of the blame. He left Brown as a patsy and a fall guy for this mess and now he's wandering around acting like the second coming. Him I can happily despise!
    Actually, from what I've seen, people blame labour, then Brown. Labour includes (and included) all the muppets who helped get us into this situation in the first place.

    [rant]
    Ultimately though, what the heck did people expect... a band aid approach and everything would be alright?... it's going to get a LOT worse before it gets better. Unemployment of 4 million I wouldn't be surprised and a real slow down in trade but at the same time you can bet people will start to appreciate their lot a heck of a lot more. Communities will have to come together, getting to know your neighbour, etc... We excel at making the best out of a bad situation and suck when we have it all... like children... spoil them all the time and they take it for granted... Take it away and spoil them a little and they learn to appreciate it.
    [/rant]
    I don't expect a quick fix. I just wish the government, and it's leader, Brown, would stop trying to play down the damage that has been done, and how long it will take to repair. It is fine getting financial people to say 'its going to take 2 years' or whatever to recover. But people, at this moment, don't trust anyone involved in finance, after all, they got us into this mess. We need a government who is honest. (Not that I'm saying the Conservatives would be even 1% better).

    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    That guy IS a politician. He's a tory MEP.
    Reread what I said. I said 'if only more politicians'.

    The financial deficit is the least of the govts worries at the moment. Fiscal stimulus commitments dictates that the govt. will have to run a large deficit. they are not alone.
    Agreed. I haven't contested that.

    I tend to agree with somabc, if broon can reduce or keep people's mortgage payments' low up till the next election they could well vote him back in by the skin of his teeth. Sad but possibly true. But what of mortgage payments if Mervyn king has to raise interest rates as his 'exit strategy' from queasing. The only certainty ahead is the uncertainty.
    Sadly, you are probably speaking the truth.

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    Friez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    I tend to agree with somabc, if broon can reduce or keep people's mortgage payments' low up till the next election they could well vote him back in by the skin of his teeth. Sad but possibly true. But what of mortgage payments if Mervyn king has to raise interest rates as his 'exit strategy' from queasing. The only certainty ahead is the uncertainty.
    Not me and millions of others in a similar condition. My savings are reduced to almost non-existance since interest rates plummeted. I can't afford a house, and likely never will no matter how much they want to make it easy to pay off Mortgages, I want my savings back k, thx.

    Skin of teeth, maybe.

    What I do like about that video is how he mentioned that Brown was a lying swine to Europe and the UK all in one brush.
    Last edited by Friez; 25th March 2009 at 08:46 AM.

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    Dos_Box's Avatar
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    I don't know how I'm, going to break the news to my kids in 14 years time that the huge debt they are saddled with (and not a student one either) was because we paid to allow some guys to have huge pensions and get away scot free with the wholesale collapse of the banking industry.
    Rescuing the banks was an excellent idea. Allowing the bankers to get away with it, not so. If I were the govt I would have got my best legal people in and started to ask for options.

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    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friez View Post
    Not me and millions of others in a similar condition. My savings are reduced to almost non-existance since interest rates plummeted. I can't afford a house, and likely never will no matter how much they want to make it easy to pay off Mortgages, I want my savings back k, thx.

    Skin of teeth, maybe.

    What I do like about that video is how he mentioned that Brown was a lying swine to Europe and the UK all in one brush.
    look at it from a politicians point of view.

    We as a nation are net borrowers. And many of those who do have savings have a greater amount in debt, most of it secured against property.

    Mortgage debt is in the 80%+ of gross domestic product, add unsecured debts i.e credit cards, student loans etc. then we are our personal debt is over 100% of gdp. In other words our debt exceeds our capacity to produce

    given that, who does brown need to woo ? savers or borrowers. In particular mortgage borrowers, we have a particularly high proportion of mortgage holders in this country.....cowtowing to mortgage holders is THE priority for any politcian to secure victory.

    There is a growing resentment among people like you and I, net savers and priced out of home ownership, but i fear we are in the minority. Avoiding negative equity for the majority, maximising the value of property for homeowners appears to be where the priority of govt. lies.....never mind the fact most of that wealth in property was illusory, and the trillions lost in value of real estate will likely take years to recover. That's if a lot of that value isn't unrecoverable because it was hideously overvalued.
    Those losses need to be written down, the question is whether the banks take the hit or the taxpayer.

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    mb2k01's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Dos_Box;309890]I don't know how I'm, going to break the news to my kids in 14 years time that the huge debt they are saddled with....[QUOTE]

    It's an interesting point, and one I was having with my partner the other night. We don't have kids yet, but when we do there is no way I want them growing up in this country!

    I grew up in a Northen part of Yorkshire and then moved to a sunny part of Cornwall - pretty much done 50-50 of my life in each place. There are more opportunities in the North, but a better way of life down in the South West. Unfortunately, whatever you do in this Country, no matter where you are or what you work as, everything always comes back to Government. They tax us to the hills, cut spending on services that would be useful, and basically take the pi$$ out of all of us!

    I am proud to be English in some ways but not in others. I'd love to get US, CA or AU citizenship and emigrate for good!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    I don't know how I'm, going to break the news to my kids in 14 years time that the huge debt they are saddled with (and not a student one either) was because we paid to allow some guys to have huge pensions and get away scot free with the wholesale collapse of the banking industry.
    I'm not holding my breath, but it's perfectly possible that in 14 years time the debt will be nicely cleared.

    The money that's gone to the banks hasn't just been poured down the drain. If the banking industry can be sorted out then money starts coming back from them to the government. As I understand it, Northern Rock, has already paid back quite a chunk of the money it was given.

    As I say, I'm not wildly optimistic that it will happen soon but there's no reason that it shouldn't happen. Just because Margaret Thatcher sold off every state owned industry at a bargain price so the state didn't get the money it could have done, doesn't mean to say we have to do the same with the banks when they go back into private ownership.

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    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srochford View Post
    I'm not holding my breath, but it's perfectly possible that in 14 years time the debt will be nicely cleared.

    The money that's gone to the banks hasn't just been poured down the drain. If the banking industry can be sorted out then money starts coming back from them to the government. As I understand it, Northern Rock, has already paid back quite a chunk of the money it was given.

    As I say, I'm not wildly optimistic that it will happen soon but there's no reason that it shouldn't happen. Just because Margaret Thatcher sold off every state owned industry at a bargain price so the state didn't get the money it could have done, doesn't mean to say we have to do the same with the banks when they go back into private ownership.
    First of all, Northern Rock has now reversed that policy of paying back the chunk of money it was given at the previous rate of repayment ....it is now being setup to lend more to 'get banks lending'
    [i really hate that phrase], as a sort of 'good bank'.

    If you recall in part the way it was paying back the taxpayer money + interest was by effectively curtailing new business and pricing customers out of keeping their mortgage with NR, they were also peculiarly aggressive when it came to repossessions. Not something you'd expect of a nationalised bank is it ? turfing people out on they're ear. And not being keen to retain customers doesn't like any kind of bank i know, then again going from that to lending 14bn in new mortgage lending sounds like this bank might have some sort of personality disorder. not unlike they're boss, gordon clown

    Secondly the govt. and the taxpayer getting repaid from these bailouts is based on consumers and businesses being able to repay debt borrowed from these part-nationalised banks and for them not to default on this debt in any significant numbers [and ofcourse for the banks to value these loans/assets properly in the first place] . Plus there's the issue of how many more debt writedowns and further losses we'll be exposed to as we enter deflation.

    As it is inevitable that interest rates will rise at some point in the indeterminate future, and the fact we realistically don't have the capacity to take on much more debt.....then i'd say there was considerable risk. But don't worry, the taxpayer is on the hook for the risk and losses. So that could mean higher taxes, cuts in public services, mountain of debt to service the interest on - possibly - down the road.

    The thatcher era may be long gone, but the idea of socialising losses and privatising profits is very much alive and well.

    tbh the way things are looking 14 years might be about the length of time these banks will remain in public 'ownership'. Who knows. But i'm certainly not looking forward to a decade of japanese style zombie banks.

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    Michael's Avatar
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    Can I just note... It isn't working YET...

    Can I also ask just what people think would have happened if just one of the banks had been allowed to go to the wall?
    That's just it, I think there's doubt whether it'll work at all. The banks had to be bailed out otherwise a lot of people would of lost everything and that would of been the end of our economy!

    It's been mentioned before, but the Government and the Bank of England didn't set down enough 'rules' with this bailout/loan of money and with the incompetent decisions being made, that's why clever people like Sir Fred Goodwin are adhering to the law and earning extremely large pensions.

    We're in the worst position out of all the G20 countries and yet Gordon Brown wants to lead the way? It just doesn't add up. It won't be just our children paying this off, but also our grandchildren, but Gordon Brown wants to borrow more?

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