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General Chat Thread, UK economy at risk, warns Cameron... in General; We've (and to an extent we have been encouraged to) dug our own hole here. Living above the means, credit, ...
  1. #16
    Sirbendy's Avatar
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    We've (and to an extent we have been encouraged to) dug our own hole here. Living above the means, credit, "buy now pay later" etc...

    Look at house prices..fantasy world. Anyone ready "Making Money" by Pratchett? I refer you to the end bit - about fantasy gold, and banks promising to honour wages etc, and the gold being there, provided nobody goes to look. It's the single best summary of the whole idiotic mess we're in that I've read.

    The whole damn thing has been a dream..dream profits, dream values - I defy anyone to tell me things like the house prices, the mortgages etc are really worth anything physical. An agreement based on money never really seen is all it is.

    And then it falls over. Lets see what happens - the population of the world needs curbing - this might just be the kick it needs. You can't stop an avalanche - the most you can hope for it to let it level out and then pick up the peices and try to learn from the experience.

    Governments never will. All bloody money-grabbing spin idiots. Their wages are ridiculous, and so is everything they do. To an extent the same holds true for councils. Power corrupts.

    The UK isn't london, yet how often do the Gov't really get out of there and see? You can't model the UK on one over-inflated glorified city. It's just plain idiocy.

    I was brought up by an accountant, and my elders. I live by "make do and mend" and "if you can't afford it, do without". I don't own a credit card (debit), I've never taken a loan. I don't see the point. What I have may not be new, it may not be flashy, and it may look "distressed", but it's all paid for outright, no debt incurred.

    As opposed to my brother, who's quite in debt...living above his means, and not seeming to see it..until now. It's all stupid.

    If anything, a coelition governement might be more use..

  2. #17

    mattx's Avatar
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    Anyone ready "Making Money" by Pratchett?
    On my Xmas list.....

  3. #18

    Dos_Box's Avatar
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    I love all this talk of 'Toffs' and 'Hooray Henries\Henriattas'. Most of it is out of page 2 of the NuLabour spin manual disigned to create divisions and hatreds. Most of the current Labour govt went to public school, in fact many of them have not held down a single real job for more than 5 years before seeking power.
    My question is this though. If you were to trust your money to someone, would you trust it to the person who is rich and knows how to stay rich, or to the person who will blow it all on a Friday night?
    The last time to tories were in power the messed up big, but only in one key area. They forgot about people. They knew how to run an economy, but not the people. They too at the beginning of their last period of power were left with a broke and bankrupt country on the edge of anarchy and they turned it around, but at a cost. We are almost in the same situation again, but this time things are more blurred. There are no major industries left to collapse and no one really know where would be the best place to sit out a recession. We are going to live through a few very stange years I suspect, and simple name calling just shows a lack of thought and the kind a slavish mentality that got Labour back in last time. I don't blame Cameron for having no policies. He doesn't have to have any, his party are not in power (yet), but as the situation becomes clearer you can bet he will have some, especailly as the election draws nearer.

  4. 3 Thanks to Dos_Box:

    Gibbo (10th December 2008), Netman (9th December 2008), torledo (9th December 2008)

  5. #19

    mattx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    I love all this talk of 'Toffs' and 'Hooray Henries\Henriattas'. Most of it is out of page 2 of the NuLabour spin manual disigned to create divisions and hatreds. Most of the current Labour govt went to public school, in fact many of them have not held down a single real job for more than 5 years before seeking power.
    My question is this though. If you were to trust your money to someone, would you trust it to the person who is rich and knows how to stay rich, or to the person who will blow it all on a Friday night?
    The last time to tories were in power the messed up big, but only in one key area. They forgot about people. They knew how to run an economy, but not the people. They too at the beginning of their last period of power were left with a broke and bankrupt country on the edge of anarchy and they turned it around, but at a cost. We are almost in the same situation again, but this time things are more blurred. There are no major industries left to collapse and no one really know where would be the best place to sit out a recession. We are going to live through a few very stange years I suspect, and simple name calling just shows a lack of thought and the kind a slavish mentality that got Labour back in last time. I don't blame Cameron for having no policies. He doesn't have to have any, his party are not in power (yet), but as the situation becomes clearer you can bet he will have some, especailly as the election draws nearer.
    Knew how to run an economy ? Errrr 16th Sept 1992 ring any bells ?
    3.5 billion down the bog.........
    Oh yes, the Tory's certainly knew how to run an economy didn't they.....

    Face it, most MPS are just a bunch of useless managers who can't tie there own shoe laces.....

    There are no major industries left to collapse
    'Cos Maggie sold them all.
    Last edited by mattx; 9th December 2008 at 10:25 PM.

  6. #20
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    You are right the Tories did mess up last time by not caring (at all) about ordinary people, this alone would make me never want to vote for them. They are elected by the 'people' to govern for the 'people'. Failing to do so leaves them completely contemptible IMHO.

    New Labour do share many traits with the Conservatives although there is still a greater spectrum of opinion / background. However New Labour had 10 years to change the face of politics, most of the time with a large majority and comfortable economic conditions and they have totally squandered the opportunity.

    Personally I would back the Lib Dems, why do people feel the need to vote for parties who make the same mistakes over and over again?

    Last edited by somabc; 9th December 2008 at 04:42 PM.

  7. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    the last time a conservative govt. was in charge in 1997 we had a strong economy AND opportunity and affordability for those without 400k mortgages.
    Strongish economy, possibly but just take a look at the whole of the 80s and a good chunk of the 90s - not such a strong economy then - maybe the Conservatives don't know what to do after all.

    Of course, we can go back further, and look at the late 70s - massive inflation, government drifting, complete mess; looks like Labour have no clue either.

    Peering further back into the mists of time, we have the 3 day week, no electricity, candles running out in shops because people had to buy them to provide lighting. Maybe the Conservatives weren't that good then.

    We can play this game for a long time - everyone can come up with reasons why the "other" side is bad or good but it doesn't really help.

    I've no idea whether this government's plans are going to fix the problems but I really hope that they have got the right idea and we're not going to go back to the poor economic circumstances we've had too many times before.

    A few of the things which could help compared to the last recession is that interest rates are very low so although people have borrowed stupid amounts of money it is still affordable to pay it back (for those who weren't around or have just forgotten, in the early 90s we were paying over 15% interest on mortgages). Unemployment is rising but it's nowhere near the levels of the last decade. Prices have risen but seem to be stabilising (petrol is cheaper now than it has been for well over a year; if the dollar/sterling exchange rate were improves then it will be even cheaper)

    I want a government which tries to make sure that most people do OK. Not really sure which party that might be in the future.

  8. #22

    Dos_Box's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattx View Post
    New how to run an economy ? Errrr 16th Sept 1992 ring any bells ?
    3.5 billion down the bog.........
    Oh yes, the Tory's certainly knew how to run an economy didn't they.....

    Face it, most MPS are just a bunch of useless managers who can't tie there own shoe laces.....
    Most MPs are not trained managers full stop. In fact most are not trained anythings.

  9. #23

    mattx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    Most MPs are not trained managers full stop. In fact most are not trained anythings.
    Very true, thats why they are MPs !!

  10. #24
    mark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srochford View Post
    We can play this game for a long time - everyone can come up with reasons why the "other" side is bad or good but it doesn't really help.
    Here here [grumble grumble zzzzz]

    I loved the 3 day week - evenings in candlelight - wonderful!

    I don't think we can say it enough: greedy bankers were allowed by the government to take us to the cleaners and put the country in ruin.

    Lesson learned... or maybe this is the new way we work now.

  11. #25

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    It doesn't matter who you vote for, the Govt alway get in!

  12. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattx View Post
    Very true, thats why they are MPs !!
    Why did I think of teachers when I read that?

  13. #27
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srochford View Post
    Strongish economy, possibly but just take a look at the whole of the 80s and a good chunk of the 90s - not such a strong economy then - maybe the Conservatives don't know what to do after all.

    Of course, we can go back further, and look at the late 70s - massive inflation, government drifting, complete mess; looks like Labour have no clue either.

    Peering further back into the mists of time, we have the 3 day week, no electricity, candles running out in shops because people had to buy them to provide lighting. Maybe the Conservatives weren't that good then.

    We can play this game for a long time - everyone can come up with reasons why the "other" side is bad or good but it doesn't really help.

    I've no idea whether this government's plans are going to fix the problems but I really hope that they have got the right idea and we're not going to go back to the poor economic circumstances we've had too many times before.

    A few of the things which could help compared to the last recession is that interest rates are very low so although people have borrowed stupid amounts of money it is still affordable to pay it back (for those who weren't around or have just forgotten, in the early 90s we were paying over 15% interest on mortgages). Unemployment is rising but it's nowhere near the levels of the last decade. Prices have risen but seem to be stabilising (petrol is cheaper now than it has been for well over a year; if the dollar/sterling exchange rate were improves then it will be even cheaper)

    I want a government which tries to make sure that most people do OK. Not really sure which party that might be in the future.
    We already have seriously poor economic conditions for a lot of people. British public on average are able to save only 1% of their monthly income after pension commitments are taken into account. We are personally indebted to the tune of over 1 trillion, millions of young people have been priced out of owning their own home by dispropotionate house price inflation. We are already seeing major job losses and we will most agree see very sharp increases into 2009.

    So yes, i would say that's pretty serious. But wait, uncle gordon won't be able to create non-jobs fast enough and we have low interest rates, so things aren't THAT bad.


    . It's quite clear that nulabour have been selective in which figures they use to measure unemployment. It's a given that we'll get close to 3million, and if you include those on incapacity benefit as being out of work [which labour don't] then you have over 3mill.

    House prices have already dropped more in a few months than the drops that played out over a period of a few years during the last recession....house sales and mortgage approvals have fallen off a cliff...and without interventionalism of the govt. that just pushes the problems further down the line, we would have seen more repossesions next year than during the last recession. We will certainly get close to early 90's respossessions despite the policies.

    So even with nulabours aggressive public sector non-job creation scheme over the last decade, which skews the competitiveness of our economy, we are STILL going to have a huge unemployment problem.

    MY point is nulabour were left with a very strong economy, which was taking prudent steps after itself coming out of the other side of a recession. I'm not a tory fanboy or anything, i just liked the way Ken Clarke as chancellor was managing the economy and i remember a period of moderation and affordability before labour had a majority and mandate to push through some horrible policies and outdated economic dogma. If clarke's period as chancellor is compared to predecessors lamont and major then it's only fair brown should be compared to clarke.

    My point is NOT that the tories can avoid recession or are recession-free, that is clearly not the case as history has shown. But rather than the oft repeated 15% interest rates [don't forget MIRAS which many seem to have forgotten] i prefer to look at the health of the economy post the early recession of the 90's and the state of the economy today pre the credit crunch inflicted recession/depression. And a comparison of an economy coming out of a recession vs an economy after enjoying a decade of boom is quite startling and more apt.

    One of the problems with labour economic governance was that they failed to do what a prudent govt. should have done during years of false asset price prosperity fuelled by cheap credit. In other words they spent and overcommitted rather than doing the responsible thing....and now they are committed to keynesian spending and leaving huge debt obligations for future govts. and the british taxpaer. Jam today an' all that.

    Several aspects of the economy were in a healthy and prudent position up to about 2001 under labour purely becuase labour commited to tory spending plans. Once they got that albatross off their backs the nulabour state began to take shape, the asset bubble effectively took off globally replacing the smaller dotcom bubble which burst around that time - aggressive rate cutting at select moments by central banks excabertaed rather than cooled the bubble [so see, low interest rates aren't all honey]....and as for the last six years, well we know what happened.
    :

  14. #28

    mattx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew_C View Post
    Why did I think of teachers when I read that?
    Because YOU know just what they are like.
    Talking of which, yesterday I had to show one how to use a telephone. No lie, I had to show a teacher how to use a telephone - what buttons to press etc.

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