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General Chat Thread, Atheism will eat itself in General; Originally Posted by mark The Christian church sponsored scientific study when theology was part of it, and this was a ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    The Christian church sponsored scientific study when theology was part of it, and this was a major contribution to science acknowledged by Dawkins and the like. You can split hairs and say that cave men were scientists to some degree, but the facts remain.
    A good chunk of the theological study involved finding new ways to read the same source material in an attempt to find more answers. This diverted huge amounts of funding and attention away from physical sciences that did not seek to prove religious theology. The presence of religion as one of the major sciences directly hindered the progress of several other forms of science and made publishing their work much more difficult as it did not seek to prove the popular theories. Again pretty much a reversal of the scientific method into 'fact' looking for supporting proof rather than the healthier and less bias idea looking to be proved or disproved.

    Religion may have helped by providing some of the funding but it was very much a "my house, my rules" affair which may have in fact hindered as much as it helped depending on your point of view.

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    Friez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    Strange then that Christianity gave birth to Science
    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    The Christian church sponsored scientific study when theology was part of it.
    Provided that it fit in with what they were saying, the church were happy for scientists to come up with stuff for them. God forbid (tm) that they find out something that goes against the grain! Death to the infidel!

    Oh, doesn't mean that Christianity spawned science, it just means that they sponsored it in a highly biased manner so that they may use it for their own diabolical ends to convince the uneducated peasants that god is for real, even though they still don't know for sure

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    The Christian church sponsored scientific study when theology was part of it, and this was a major contribution to science acknowledged by Dawkins and the like.
    I agree. Religion is not scientific though. The intention was to understand God's creation not do silly things like showing that Genesis had things all wrong.

    It's only metaphorical after science.

    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    You can split hairs and say that cave men were scientists to some degree, but the facts remain.
    Of course they were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwendes View Post
    It's causes like this, that remain, that I am passionately anti-religion about. People like mark that agree with the science and choose to have a creator God instead of my 'Big Bang' are not a problem - we are equally uncertain and can never know the answer.
    But I believe in the big bang too. Like I've said many times.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwendes View Post
    Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

    You've tried this one before and it's rubbish. Religion actively attacked Science - look at poor Galileo.
    Religion actually attacked science.. yes it did. As you say we've covered the ground before, but it remains the point that Christianity gave rise to science and contributed to it's development in a significant way. That is because scientific discovery was deemed to be productive and Christianity promoted free thinking and actually allows people to believe what they want, hence our current society. The Roman Catholic Church as a whole in it's history has done the opposite mostly. As we've covered previously at depth, Catholicism hasn't followed Christinaity in that respect. You can't continue to attribute poeple making mistakes with the belief - the two are incompatible.


    Quote Originally Posted by gwendes View Post
    Certainty that the truth is already known is the thing that is dangerous. Why is it such a big problem for religion to just admit that it doesn't know for sure?
    You're assuming religion seeks empirical evidence, when such pursuit is idiotic. I believe in the Big Bang and a personal God. for you that is impossible. I say you're missing half of human experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Friez View Post
    Provided that it fit in with what they were saying, the church were happy for scientists to come up with stuff for them. God forbid (tm) that they find out something that goes against the grain! Death to the infidel!

    Oh, doesn't mean that Christianity spawned science, it just means that they sponsored it in a highly biased manner so that they may use it for their own diabolical ends to convince the uneducated peasants that god is for real, even though they still don't know for sure
    I think you're mixing up the facts with common prejudice. Politics colours everything in society so one view pervades. As i've said, I think religion has no place in politics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    Religion actually attacked science.. yes it did.
    The REALLY scary thing is the way that it still attacks science. The most powerful nation in the world has a significant minority that believe in creationism and many would deny Darwin's place in the classroom.

    Your personal god is no threat to me; their fanaticism is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    but it remains the point that Christianity gave rise to science and contributed to it's development in a significant way.
    A person who was a monk found a formalized way to look at a problem that has persisted and become the basis for current modern western science.

    Way to deny the efforts and successes of the rest of the people on the planet. The myans, egyptions, celts and arab cultures were all decades to centuries ahead of the people who formed and subscribed to christianity by asking questions very similar to those posed by Mendel.

    Their civilizations all dwindled in the end but only after rather sucessful runs that lasted for substantial amounts of time. Their cultures were all concoured, died out or suffered from internal squabils which broke their societies and kicked them back to the dark ages.

    The western sociecy of today is no different and could be concoured by internal squabiling or powermongering just as the others were. The ideas and problems are not unique or unpresidented, those that deny history are doomed to repeat it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew_C View Post
    The REALLY scary thing is the way that it still attacks science. The most powerful nation in the world has a significant minority that believe in creationism and many would deny Darwin's place in the classroom.

    Your personal god is no threat to me; their fanaticism is.
    Their fanaticism is a threat to me too.

    Richard Dawkins is a threat, as he seeks to limit my freedom, but he isn't in the same league as creationist fanatics.

    We're talking about oddball nut's as if they're the mainstream. And with that justified prejudice in hand, on route to burning the witches (ie me).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Way to deny the efforts and successes of the rest of the people on the planet.
    I did say not including the east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    I did say not including the east.
    Yea but some of those are not eastern

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    I think you're mixing up the facts with common prejudice. Politics colours everything in society so one view pervades. As i've said, I think religion has no place in politics.
    So you deny history? Brill!

    Yes, religion should have no place in politics, but tell that to the Lords Spiritual...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    We're talking about oddball nut's as if they're the mainstream.
    They ARE mainstream! Have you just ignored what has been going on in America? That is where Christianity is taking the world, as opposed to the evil done in Islam's name.

    I quite fancy moving to Mars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    Religion actually attacked science.. yes it did. As you say we've covered the ground before, but it remains the point that Christianity gave rise to science and contributed to it's development in a significant way.
    No it didn't. Christianity happened to be around when science was being done - it may have facilitated science but it did not give rise to science. Islam contributed to science too - the money and power was in the hands of the religious leaders - in most parts of the world religion and 'government' were inseparable.

    Christianity didn't contribute - people that were Christian did. Christianity enabled, in some cases, people to do science (as long as it fitted the knowledge that Christianity wanted to find)

    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    That is because scientific discovery was deemed to be productive and Christianity promoted free thinking and actually allows people to believe what they want, hence our current society.
    Again, no. Freethinking was not viewed as being in contradiction to religion - when it was that was actively fought - however much science was achieved it remains an unscientific method.

    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    You can't continue to attribute poeple making mistakes with the belief - the two are incompatible.
    I'm not doing that - people make mistakes - fine. You can't claim that religion is the positive and people are the negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    You're assuming religion seeks empirical evidence, when such pursuit is idiotic. I believe in the Big Bang and a personal God. for you that is impossible. I say you're missing half of human experience.
    But if the evidence was available you think it wouldn't be accepted? Revelation is the current method for proof isn't it?

    Your personal god is untouchable - I think it exists soley in your mind - for better or worse. We can't really discuss that god.

    The God we can make unlikely is the all-everything super-being that fuels most religion. We can look at the 'proof' in texts. We can combine attributes. We can define God out of existence. Not god. That one is yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew_C View Post
    They ARE mainstream! Have you just ignored what has been going on in America? That is where Christianity is taking the world, as opposed to the evil done in Islam's name.

    I quite fancy moving to Mars.
    Or Sweden

    It's very difficult to be anti-fundamentalist without being attacked for being annti-religious.

    I agree with you Andrew - personal gods are not threat to me and I hope that people are being honest when they say it brings them joy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Friez View Post
    So you deny history? Brill!

    Yes, religion should have no place in politics, but tell that to the Lords Spiritual...
    no.... go read it again! :P

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