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General Chat Thread, Diaries in General; Originally Posted by daz666 Well lets see if ict makes peoples lives easier why do they need techies to fix ...
  1. #31

    webman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daz666 View Post
    Well lets see if ict makes peoples lives easier why do they need techies to fix it when it goes wrong. ... <snip> ict is a complete failure .... <snip>
    Yey let's all go back to stylus & papyrus

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    localzuk (16th July 2008), tech_guy (16th July 2008)

  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by webman View Post
    Yey let's all go back to stylus & papyrus
    I can strongly recommend an etch-a-sketch! When it goes wrong or you make a mistake - just shake it!

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    john (16th July 2008)

  5. #33

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daz666 View Post
    Well lets see if ict makes peoples lives easier why do they need techies to fix it when it goes wrong. and the amount of work that has been lost due to crashes theft ect. as to ibm and councils i cant say but i bet theres a few paper diaries in the council offices. and as for rm if they used paper at least there stuff would work... as to letter writing ive not had a letter ive sent go missing but ive had emails just vanish into the ether. and as for card payments i do use that over the internet but at least when you paid for everything in cash you didnt see youre bank account suddenly empty..... ps i can read and the comment that diaries should be electronic well i hope after youve planned youre life in youre pda it then dosent crash just as youre in that very important meeting as they are prone to do... while paper will still be there..... (my comments are my own)
    That's attitude could be categorised as being that of a luddite. If I remember correctly, there used to be vast typing pools of staff who had to type out letters. There used to be people hired specifically to spell check work. People to add things up etc... All these have been made pointless by computers and technology. Telephone exchanges used to be hundreds of people plugging cables into each other, now handled by computers.

    Without those changes, we wouldn't have the technology we have today.

    And every system should be designed around resilience. My calendar is backed up in multiple places. 1. the exchange server itself is backed up. 2. my local client caches the calendar and 3. the pda contains that same information. So if my PDA goes odd, then I simply reset it.

    If I were to lose a paper diary, or it were to get wet, that would be the end. No backups. No comeback. Gone.

  6. #34
    daz666's Avatar
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    lets all get a Etch A Sketch then...

  7. #35

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahuxham View Post
    Wouldn't you call the PA and still check the appointment (Where they would than check electronically), or would you rather check the member of SMT's calendar without prior permission to-do so?
    In exchange there is a feature to add meetings that will show you when the people are busy but not what they are doing, this way you can book in meetings without compromising privacy. It is enabled by default to (public free-busy data).

    At one of my sites the Principals PA does all of the bookings for the principal which she confirms with and adds to his outlook calendar.

  8. #36

    Edu-IT's Avatar
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    Don't a lot of teachers diaries also serve as markbooks and lesson planners?

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    dancingdruid (17th July 2008)

  10. #37

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edu-IT View Post
    Don't a lot of teachers diaries also serve as markbooks and lesson planners?
    They shouldn't be doing any more. The governments requirements for pupil achievement data to be available to parents on demand in the next couple of years should be shifting teachers from using paper to electronic marking systems. The idea being the school will have an MLE which will allow parents to track their child's progress in real-time.

    Every teacher at the school I work in uses their laptop for planning lessons, and the same for the 3 other schools I know about the workings of.

  11. #38
    contink's Avatar
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    WTF? Why does everything have to be done using electronics...

    Laptops, yeah we have one or a workstations but it's part of our job to have it on at pretty much all times so it makes sense for us.

    For teachers, changing rooms, meeting children in corridors, or staff, arranging meetings, dealing with stuff on the fly it makes a hell of a lot more sense to use a paper diary...

    For myself I use OneNote but my other half just doesn't have it open long enough to use it and buys her own paper organiser so she can work more effectively...

    This is one of those occassions where the "teachers are so last century" is just a pile of proverbial bull rocks...





    Edit re-hangs coat and wades in for round #2.

    I've read the rest of the "arguements" for electronics and I'm sorry a bit more debunking required.

    1. You assume everyone has the same electronic system for a PDA, or whatever... So, lemme see, everyone has an exchange compatible phone do they? Not Nokia datebook or Blackberry (and yes I know it can communicate) or heck Samsung..

    2. So we have this mishmash of technology unless of course you're suggesting school forks out thousands to buy the same thing for everyone. And then you want folks to all understand that they should re-arrange appointments using the system when in fact most folks would simply pick up the phone and re-arrange and then make a note of it..

    3. Training.. How much extra training are we talking here for people to learn to use these things, not to mention deal with all the added fubars when people delete appointments, etc... So, do I really need go on.

    It makes perfect sense to you because you're looking at it from a "perfect world" point of view. It's rather like someone using mailmerge to address 20 envelopes. If you know what you're doing it's quick!.. For someone trying to use it for the first time they waste 3 hours trying to get it to work, when they could have grabbed a pen and written the labels in 5 minutes. Sometimes the old system is used because it makes sense, and regardless of how efficient it could be, in the real world (where teachers live) it just isn't....
    Last edited by contink; 16th July 2008 at 10:18 PM.

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    ahuxham (17th July 2008), dancingdruid (17th July 2008), GrumbleDook (16th July 2008), KarlGoddard (17th July 2008), leco (16th July 2008), Pyroman (21st July 2008), Sylv3r (17th July 2008)

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    If I remember correctly, there used to be vast typing pools of staff who had to type out letters. There used to be people hired specifically to spell check work. People to add things up etc... All these have been made pointless by computers and technology. Telephone exchanges used to be hundreds of people plugging cables into each other, now handled by computers.
    Ideology.
    Large numbers of people de-skilled and out of work - wonderful. Now anyone and everyone is an expert at all of those things and can do it for themselves. Ah but wait a minute - people to proof reed and spell cheque no don't need those, computers can do it for you. People to add things up - no Excel can do that (well almost 'cept it can't do the maths properly). Exchanges with plugs and things - no that's now done by the engineer unplugging things and denying all knowledge.

    Without those changes, we wouldn't have the technology we have today.
    Theory. Possibly true but not yet proven.

    If I were to lose a paper diary, or it were to get wet, that would be the end. No backups. No comeback. Gone.
    Somehow a paper diary is much more personal and friendly. I can doodle in it when I get bored at briefings when we all synchronise our er . . . diaries. Oh sorry no the computers can do that for us, silly me I was forgetting. Ah now there's an idea - we are not required at all we'll let the computers do it all.

    Etch a sketch sounds fun.

  14. #40

    localzuk's Avatar
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    2. So we have this mishmash of technology unless of course you're suggesting school forks out thousands to buy the same thing for everyone. And then you want folks to all understand that they should re-arrange appointments using the system when in fact most folks would simply pick up the phone and re-arrange and then make a note of it..
    Yes, schools could spend some money on something which would make lives easier. Many aspects of their jobs have to be on a computer anyway in the next few years, so why not include diaries in that list. For example, PDAs can be used for attendance also (which should be electronically stored now anyway).

    3. Training.. How much extra training are we talking here for people to learn to use these things, not to mention deal with all the added fubars when people delete appointments, etc... So, do I really need go on.
    Extra training should actually be quite minimal, as the entire concept is simple to understand, even to technophobes. And fubars happen with paper diaries too. You can also handle removal of meetings with permissions, notifications etc... you can't in a paper diary.

    It makes perfect sense to you because you're looking at it from a "perfect world" point of view. It's rather like someone using mailmerge to address 20 envelopes. If you know what you're doing it's quick!.. For someone trying to use it for the first time they waste 3 hours trying to get it to work, when they could have grabbed a pen and written the labels in 5 minutes. Sometimes the old system is used because it makes sense, and regardless of how efficient it could be, in the real world (where teachers live) it just isn't....
    So they spend a bit longer the first time, but save themselves hours in the future. I'm pretty sure our office staff would hate to have to go from mail merged labels and letters to hand addressed ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by leco View Post
    Ideology.
    Large numbers of people de-skilled and out of work - wonderful. Now anyone and everyone is an expert at all of those things and can do it for themselves. Ah but wait a minute - people to proof reed and spell cheque no don't need those, computers can do it for you. People to add things up - no Excel can do that (well almost 'cept it can't do the maths properly). Exchanges with plugs and things - no that's now done by the engineer unplugging things and denying all knowledge.
    Those people are now doing other jobs, just like with every technological change.

    Theory. Possibly true but not yet proven.
    It's not possible to prove. It can be looked at logically and seen to be the best theory. (like with all science!!).

    Somehow a paper diary is much more personal and friendly. I can doodle in it when I get bored at briefings when we all synchronise our er . . . diaries. Oh sorry no the computers can do that for us, silly me I was forgetting. Ah now there's an idea - we are not required at all we'll let the computers do it all.
    We are in a school to help educate children. Not as some form of adult playground!

  15. #41

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    A big A4 day to a page diary is a must ... there are meetings I don't take my machine to and there are times when I can take notes and then firm up the notes afterwards ... I also have a PDA ... a Paper Disposable Assistant ... a folded up piece of paper to take down little notes if needed.

    Paper is fun ... paper is nice ... and there are times when pen and paper is sometimes more therapeutic.

    I like electronic calendars, but a diary is more than just a calendar ... it can be helpful for all sorts of things.

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    leco (16th July 2008)

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    We are in a school to help educate children. Not as some form of adult playground!
    Before we make all those working in the ink, pen, pencil, paper, printer industry etc redundant, let's make it part of the history curriculum - how to use a paper diary.

    I think a little fun in the workplace is a good thing. Social interaction ditto. Ideological theory is fine but give me practicalities every time.

  18. #43

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leco View Post
    Before we make all those working in the ink, pen, pencil, paper, printer industry etc redundant, let's make it part of the history curriculum - how to use a paper diary.
    We have jobs now that didn't exist 100 years ago. There will be jobs around in 20 years that don't exist now. The world of work is fluid. It is changing constantly. Sure, some job types may vanish but new ones appear to replace them.

    I think a little fun in the workplace is a good thing. Social interaction ditto. Ideological theory is fine but give me practicalities every time.
    Fun is one thing, but turning what should be a quick and easy process into a time to 'doodle' is not fun. It is wasting time.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Fun is one thing, but turning what should be a quick and easy process into a time to 'doodle' is not fun. It is wasting time.
    By that logic wtf are you doing spending time on here... You should be working dammit... and sleeping? We abolished that last year... Get back to work, that's wasted effort right there, think of all the servers you could have RIS'd...


  20. #45

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    At the end of the day it's personal preference, some people prefer paper diaries, some people prefer electronic ones. At my school they give you the choise, if you want a paper diary then you can request one from the office manager, if you don't then you don't have to, but no one is forced to organise themselves in a certain way just because someone else thinks it is a good idea.

    If we said everyone must use outlook calendars, they'd be major backlash from staff, and for good reason as just because I find it more convenient because I have the skills to use the technology, and the means to access it whenever and wherever I want, I have to remember not everyone does, and not everyone wants to learn these skills. As an example our site manager who is well into his 'senior years' doesn't even use e-mail, traditional notes in his pigeon hole are his prefered method of communication, but I tell you now he's one of the best organised people in the school because his system works for him.

    Personally, I use both. I have an outlook calendar, and I have a paper based diary, as each one works better in certain situations.

    Mike.

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