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General Chat Thread, Fuel crisis over in General; Originally Posted by localzuk That's the thought, but it is very unlikely. The fact that they use Lithium Ion batteries ...
  1. #46

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    That's the thought, but it is very unlikely. The fact that they use Lithium Ion batteries is one possible problem though, as they can burst into flames if pierced. But that's only as risky as any other random device bursting into flames, and wouldn't matter if it was in use or not.
    Lithium batteries are good like that, massively volatile when the insides are exposed to moisture. Your average cellphone battery could easily shred a mailbox if the protective casing was removed and the insides dropped into water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Lithium batteries are good like that, massively volatile when the insides are exposed to moisture. Your average cellphone battery could easily shred a mailbox if the protective casing was removed and the insides dropped into water.
    Its not pure Lithium in there though its Lithium cobalt oxide LiCoO2 so you should be alright in water I would think.

    http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-...ACA4000PE3.pdf
    Last edited by somabc; 19th June 2008 at 03:59 PM.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    Its not pure Lithium in there though its Lithium cobalt oxide LiCoO2 so you should be alright in water I would think.
    Safer, it depends on how charged the battery is and how much lithium exists free from the system as a contaminate as chemical systems are always a balance between reacted and unreacted components.

    Edit: Nice spec sheet link it even has the formulas
    Last edited by SYNACK; 19th June 2008 at 04:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Safer, it depends on how charged the battery is and how much lithium exists free from the system as a contaminate.
    That's true, I wouldn't want to test it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    That's a risk all HGV drivers have, as do coach drivers and others... Nothing special about tanker drivers.



    Actually, either can be a source of ignition. The latter is a very low possibility (the the extent that it isn't worth banning, as someone dropping a quartz rock on another quartz rock in a puddle of petrol is more likely), the lit fag is much more likely. The temperature range of a lit cigarette is between 400 and 700 degrees centigrade. (depending on whether the person is drawing in at the time or not). The ignition point of liquid petrol is around 260 - 480 degrees C (depending on conditions). True, if the amount of petrol is large, a cigarette would most likely be put out if dropped into a tank of it but if it is dropped onto a light covering of it on the floor, then ignition is likely. Factor in petrol vapour and ignition is even more likely...
    It's not the petrol that ignites, it's the vapour. I've done some quite sever fire fighting courses (including bulk fuel installations and other flammable storage areas) during my military hazmat and taker operator training, and there are quite a few myths about this type of thing. One fun task was trying to light aviation fuel with a math, lighter, candle and then blowtorch. Apart from the blow torch it was a lesson in futility. Fun days, especially firing hundreds of gallons of foam over fuel fire pits

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    As for the explosion at a petrol station i think you'll find that petrol will go up very easily but you could chuck a cigarette into a bucket of diesel with no probs (at room temp). It's all to do with vaporisation at average temperatures.
    Exactly, only more eloquently explained

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    somabc's Avatar
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    The flash point of a liquid is the temperature at which sufficient vapour is released to allow ignition. This is pretty low for petrol (-43 °C) but this obviously does not mean that spontaneous ignition will occur at that temperature. However, it does mean that at any temperature above this, a certain amount of heat applied to even a small amount of the vapour may start the conflagration.

    The spontaneous ignition temperature of a fuel is much higher than the flash point. For petrol it is somewhere between 200 °C and 300 °C.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by jinnantonnix View Post
    Crikey localzuk, you'd be a good man to have on board in a pub quiz. Or have you got a dedicated Google terminal? I think we should be told.
    I used to work in a petrol station and was sent on several fire training days where this lot was told to me (and the other attendees). Dunno why I remember it though!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    It's not the petrol that ignites, it's the vapour. I've done some quite sever fire fighting courses (including bulk fuel installations and other flammable storage areas) during my military hazmat and taker operator training, and there are quite a few myths about this type of thing. One fun task was trying to light aviation fuel with a math, lighter, candle and then blowtorch. Apart from the blow torch it was a lesson in futility. Fun days, especially firing hundreds of gallons of foam over fuel fire pits
    The petrol itself can ignite too. It just requires the petrol to be heated to the autoignition temperatures I mentioned earlier. This is, as I said, unlikely in a large quantity of fuel as the fuel's temperature would cause the temperature of the cigarette to be decreased very quickly and it would be put out. However, in a thin layer of fuel, it is possible - especially if the tip of the cigarette is what touches the liquid (it is obviously hotter in the center of the tip than around the side).

    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    The flash point of a liquid is the temperature at which sufficient vapour is released to allow ignition. This is pretty low for petrol (-43 °C) but this obviously does not mean that spontaneous ignition will occur at that temperature. However, it does mean that at any temperature above this, a certain amount of heat applied to even a small amount of the vapour may start the conflagration.

    The spontaneous ignition temperature of a fuel is much higher than the flash point. For petrol it is somewhere between 200 °C and 300 °C.
    Yep, and when you fuel your car, you'll see quite a lot of petrol vapour coming out of your tank when you fill up. Hence the risk during smoking (and any other ignition source/activity).

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    Those Shell drivers make me angry. I have seen at least 3 trucking companies go bust because of fuel prices recently.

    Those Shell drivers should be thankful they actually have a job in the trade. Instead they demand more pay. Greed!

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    Did no one watch the mythbusters trying to ignite petrol vapour with mobiles and cigarettes? Highly Improbable is their conclusion, also their results for mobiles.

    MythBusters Episode 2: "Cell Phone Destruction, Silicone Breasts, CD-ROM Shattering"

    MythBusters Special 7: "Hollywood on Trial"

  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ICT_GUY View Post
    Did no one watch the mythbusters trying to ignite petrol vapour with mobiles and cigarettes? Highly Improbable is their conclusion, also their results for mobiles.

    MythBusters Episode 2: "Cell Phone Destruction, Silicone Breasts, CD-ROM Shattering"

    MythBusters Special 7: "Hollywood on Trial"
    Having set petrol alight with a cigarette at a training course, I can say that 'highly improbable' is nonsense. It simply has to be a film of petrol, which is most common on a forecourt, if a cigarette were dropped. It can and does light up.

    And as said, the vapour is also very likely to light up.

    Trying to say it is improbable is ridiculous.

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    When I wuz a lad - I worked in a petrol station - no fancy training shannigans in those days - my mate was having a crafty fag at the counter and managed to set fire to the plastic waste bin...in a panic he hefted it out through the door onto the forecourt that was awash with spilt fuel. We watched the bin burn down to a nasty black blob, praying that we weren't going to be the worst fire in Coventry since the blitz - and indeed nothing caught alight.

    On the other hand - I worked in Mine Safety too - and watching a flash fire that happens when coal dust reaches a certain level in the air is really scary - we got called to a custard factory after they had a flash fire there too - it was a right mess.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpuffMonkey View Post
    When I wuz a lad - I worked in a petrol station - no fancy training shannigans in those days - my mate was having a crafty fag at the counter and managed to set fire to the plastic waste bin...in a panic he hefted it out through the door onto the forecourt that was awash with spilt fuel. We watched the bin burn down to a nasty black blob, praying that we weren't going to be the worst fire in Coventry since the blitz - and indeed nothing caught alight.

    On the other hand - I worked in Mine Safety too - and watching a flash fire that happens when coal dust reaches a certain level in the air is really scary - we got called to a custard factory after they had a flash fire there too - it was a right mess.
    Yeah. I'm not saying that it will happen 100% of the time. I'm saying the possibility is higher than some people are making out. Considerably higher!

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    14% hey. I don't begrudge them but let no-one dare complain when the public sector unions decide enough is enough and take action to improve the wages of the lowest paid in our society!

    Stand by for disruption in the health service, education, local authorities etc. Will make the awkwardness of a few garages running short of fuel seem minor!!! Schools closed, hospitals emergency only, no bins emptied etc......

    One thing that no-one seems to have answered. The drivers aren't employed by Shell but by a transport company contracted to Shell. The strikers didn't picket the offices of this company but the actual refineries. I thought that secondary picketing was illegal, I seem to remember the police and courts taking very robust action against strikers engaged in this in the past! Perhaps the police/CPS/government could explain to the miners, dockworkers, steelworkers etc who were imprisoned for secondary picketing why the same action isn`t to be taken against anyone from the road transport industry!!!

    I also suspect that if I caused disruption on motorways etc as a protest (Haulage Companies protesting about fuel prices) I would get my collar felt very quickly.

    Double standards, surely not!!!!

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    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveT View Post
    14% hey. I don't begrudge them but let no-one dare complain when the public sector unions decide enough is enough and take action to improve the wages of the lowest paid in our society!
    Uh-huh! The local gov pay campaign is going to jump on this!

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