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General Chat Thread, Am i being underpaid??? in General; Oh for the crazy 1996 - 97 days of 60k for an NT4 MCSE...
  1. #61
    cookie_monster's Avatar
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    Oh for the crazy 1996 - 97 days of 60k for an NT4 MCSE

  2. #62

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    One of the interesting problems the industry is going to have in a few years is that there will be a shortage of truly experienced people, due to nearly all companies now demanding a huge range of skills and wanting X years of experience in that particular field, even for an entry level 'answering the phones' post. ie. there is no way for someone fresh out of uni to get in to the industry.

    I think, as cookie says, the pay in IT will level over the next few years, but it will level at a good place and the industry will realise its mistakes - well we can hope anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrHappy View Post
    Yep i totally agree with your comments.

    going a step back a sec...

    do you think then that people are totally amazed and over whelmed by IT they think anyone who has a qualification or experience setting a network in the bedroom are employable to work in the IT industry? which could contribute towards why the IT industry is saturated, which in turn can have a knock on effect through out?
    Yep. That explains one of the reasons IT pay in most schools is still so low.
    Last edited by localzuk; 26th April 2008 at 11:19 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    The top of the scale for a NM in Somerset is 18.5k!
    That is shocking ... a Store Clerk in London gets that... min wage on a 40 hour week is 11k !

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    IT pay in general is extremely variable....universities aren't great when it comes to paying experienced IT pros.

    And there are some roles even in the private sector which ask a lot from candidates including considerable experience and wide breadth of skills that don't pay particularly well....and that's not taking into account the often large number of applicants and arduous interview processes. Makes you wonder sometimes why we bother with being allround sysadmins.

    Especially when non-technical managers seem to earn a lot for doing very little graft - having lots of tea breaks, replying to emails and talking a lot.
    The problem is that we are at the Bottom of the IT Field.. we are just support monkeys... the bottom of the barrel... if you want decent money go into Database design or Programming... very very boring but a heck of a lot more money...

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit View Post
    The problem is that we are at the Bottom of the IT Field.. we are just support monkeys... the bottom of the barrel... if you want decent money go into Database design or Programming... very very boring but a heck of a lot more money...
    Which I don't understand! System administration in an organisation is easily as complex as programming or database design. Look at it this way: you design your hardware infrastructure incorrectly, it will cost as much money as it would to fix a problem with the software.

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    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Which I don't understand! System administration in an organisation is easily as complex as programming or database design. Look at it this way: you design your hardware infrastructure incorrectly, it will cost as much money as it would to fix a problem with the software.
    Pay as an IT professinal in whatever field depends on both or either of the two following factors....

    1.) How much a company is willing to invest to support a particular a particular IT functional area.

    2.) The market rate for the services required. This is determined by the level of technical expertise and availability of skilled people (the old skills gap nugget)

    A company could invest hundred of thousands in hardware and software that requires quite moderate investment in support staff. Storage Infrastructure for instance.

    In comparision a company could invest tens of thousands in hardware/software solution that requires significant customization and has high support costs. For example a Siebel CRM system or a Business Objects product.

    The whole issue of pay varies so much from role to role, company to company, and type of employment.

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    cookie_monster's Avatar
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    The problem is that we are at the Bottom of the IT Field.. we are just support monkeys...
    Yep, at the end of the day the money people hope to buy equipment that supports itself and if they need someone to maintain it they want it cheap, they don't see any money in making sure their IT is working smoothly and managed by professionals. The only time they realise this is bad practice is when things go wrong and all of their staff are sat around not 'working' because their tools aren't 'working'.
    Programmers and DBA's however are seen as revenue drivers so they gain more kudos with the upper levels.

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    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Which I don't understand! System administration in an organisation is easily as complex as programming or database design. Look at it this way: you design your hardware infrastructure incorrectly, it will cost as much money as it would to fix a problem with the software.
    Ask yourself this, in a large company such as cadbury's or coca cola who's going to get paid the most in the following in order highest to lowest....

    1) The unix sysadmin and his unix bod chums who ensures the big milion dollar unix iron is ticking over.

    2) The Oracle DBA and his DBA chums who administer the $500,000 Oracle implementation, who incidentally rely on the unix guys to allocate processors, memory and storage on the big iron for they're database(s)

    3) Or the SAP admins who administer the SAP ERP installation and rely on the oracle DBA's to create and maintain for them the database(s) crucial to operation of the SAP system. We don't know how much the SAP system costs 'cos they don't tell anyone. But let's say SAP throw in a sweetener to win the business and license the product at $250,000
    and again it resides in a partition or two on the big iron.


    Theres no surprises who's going to get paid the most.....the SAP guys.
    Followed by the Oracle guys,
    Followed by the poor unix guys.

    So even though the unix guys are at the root (sorry!!) of the infrastructure and to whom everyone relies.....the oracle guys, the sap guys, the siebel guys,...the unix guys are paid the least.

    If we ddid a bit further digging we'd see that while the unix iron cost the most, the support costs will be the lowest....the oracle licensing was cheaper than the unix iron but the support costs are higher..,,,was sap licensing really the cheapest - why not, it's just an application server with a few modules written in java (simplified explanation).

    But one things for sure it's support costs are by far the highest of the three.

    II dont know what my point is.....but it's a somewhat strange answer in regards to the complexity vs pay issue. What i'm saying is at the end of the day it's all about TCO rather than how hard the different disciplines are. And IT products have differing TCO in relation to support costs, irrespective of whether we find one more complex than the other.

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    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrHappy View Post
    I suppose programmers and developers help make more money compared to some one like a sysadmin who looks after a IT infrastructure who dosen't have any involvment in making much money compared to sales, marketing, kids i guess etc
    I think you're almost right....except subsitute programmers and developers for businness analysts and consultants. The applications i've been mentioning are used for real world business activity - paying for goods and services and receipt of orders (SAP), devise marketing campaigns (Siebel). Tools that help the company do their day to day business of making money and paying creditos.

    For that reason consultants of these business apps (sometimes mistakenly referred to as administtratos) are more valuable becuase they're skills are used to ensure these crucial systems are tailored and running as efficiently as possible, it also helps they have high level of specific training and their skills are in high demand.

    Unfortunately while sysadmins are at the foundatin of what can and can't be achieved with technology....they are too far removed from the making the company money side of the business. We're too close to the engine room of the business to be noticed and acknowledged by mgmt. Exxcept they know we're there because they're paying for stuff they can't see - stuff that ensures the engine room doesnt grind to halt.....and it bugs them. Becuase these are the type of people who cn only understand something if it is presented to them as pie chart or a bar graph.

    Say sexy word to them such as sap or business intelligence and they'll come over all interested. Say fiber channel or iscsi and they'll come overr all suspiciosus and begruding.
    Last edited by torledo; 27th April 2008 at 12:55 AM.

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    I have to say whenever I read threads like this it makes me realise how lucky I am in my school. As IT Manager I get 32k, 11 weeks holiday, total support of the head and SLT, on the whole lovely staff both in my department and amongst the teachers and lots of opportunities for training and getting involved in the wider school community, directing plays, going on outdoor pursuits weekends etc. I also get to live in the Lake District which is pretty cool too.

    Surely others on here must be in similar positions?

  11. #71
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    I think you will find there arent too many in your postion. The holiday especially. I thought I was doing well with 31 days.

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    Errr jcollings, you live in some kind of IT heaven ;-) love it while it lasts. My pay is ok a bit behind yours but ok but i only get the standard 27 days hols and training what's that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cookie_monster View Post
    Errr jcollings, you live in some kind of IT heaven ;-) love it while it lasts. My pay is ok a bit behind yours but ok but i only get the standard 27 days hols and training what's that?
    Yes - I guess when I'm stressed and having a down day I need to remember it could be so much worse.

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    Mr. Ben

    Just North of the Border in B&NES it's 22.5k per annum,, although I'm only paid for term times thats 46 weeks of pay + 10 days extra per year for essential works in the holidays + SNA allowance because i'm in a large special school.

    I still have to work at Tesco's in the evening though to pay the mortgage!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post
    I have to say whenever I read threads like this it makes me realise how lucky I am in my school. As IT Manager I get 32k, 11 weeks holiday, total support of the head and SLT, on the whole lovely staff both in my department and amongst the teachers and lots of opportunities for training and getting involved in the wider school community, directing plays, going on outdoor pursuits weekends etc. I also get to live in the Lake District which is pretty cool too.

    Surely others on here must be in similar positions?
    Any opportunities at your place for similar conditions? I think you win this round!

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