Poll: Do teachers have a good starting wage?

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General Chat Thread, NUT Strike 24th April in General; Originally Posted by contink Actually, if you asked most teachers what they would prefer: - more money or - less ...
  1. #76
    petectid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contink View Post
    Actually, if you asked most teachers what they would prefer:
    - more money
    or
    - less administration and a return to educating instead of test, test, test

    .. you'd get a lot (not all) saying the latter. Money is not the only motivator and the job doesn't get some gifted individuals because it is not the same anymore. TechMonkey said it best in that it's more about paperwork, form filling and dotting the i's than actually getting the children to learn.
    Test test test, how do we measure the progress of children without testing. We need to gather this data so that we know the job is being done. I'm not an expert on the forms teachers have to fill in though most will have a purpose. If we remove testing schools will lie about attainment. It happens now, when a pupil enters primary they are usually assessed as being at a lower starting point than they really are so when they are tested and eventually leave the progression of that pupil looks better in the schools data. Secondary schools will suffer because that progress appears to slow when they go through high school. And do not forget Contink that only a few years ago under re-modelling the workforce teachers lost 25 tasks that before then would be routine in their everyday work. Teachers have always assessed pupils, the methods we use today make sure that all pupils get the same assessment criteria applied nationwide.

  2. #77
    contink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petectid View Post
    Test test test, how do we measure the progress of children without testing. We need to gather this data so that we know the job is being done.
    I'm sorry but that's pat party political rubbish! The children are being forced to take tests to prove to some league table they have learned X, Y or Z... they are taught to pass tests, not educated. Testing to the extent that it goes on now proves nothing other than the childrens ability to pass tests. And please don't blame the teachers, they are forced to choose this approach by their superiors on up through to government.

    I'm not an expert on the forms teachers have to fill in though most will have a purpose. If we remove testing schools will lie about attainment. It happens now, when a pupil enters primary they are usually assessed as being at a lower starting point than they really are so when they are tested and eventually leave the progression of that pupil looks better in the schools data.
    Correct, schools are massaging the data for all they're worth because the schools results are more important than the actual learning that goes on.. It's like the horse being led by the cart and totally insane!

    Secondary schools will suffer because that progress appears to slow when they go through high school.
    Yep, and you're telling me that secondary schools don't massage the heck out of their own data... I know of cases where teachers have virtually done the coursework for their kids to help their grades because of the pressures on them. Children often get forced to take courses they can pass instead of courses that will challenge them and in which they could actually learn useful skills that they benefit from.

    Teachers have always assessed pupils, the methods we use today make sure that all pupils get the same assessment criteria applied nationwide.
    I agree some assessment is important but the way this assessment is done currently is just plain wrong... We're drifting way off topic again though.


    Whoops... and just got this from my other half re:
    And do not forget Contink that only a few years ago under re-modelling the workforce teachers lost 25 tasks that before then would be routine in their everyday work
    Yes, in theory, but not in practice, they're still doing almost all of them, they just aren't contracted to do them anymore...
    Last edited by contink; 3rd April 2008 at 01:41 PM.

  3. Thanks to contink from:

    Friez (4th April 2008)

  4. #78
    enjay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    Company car for those not on mega salaries will typically be awarded based on miles covered or as a necessity of the job i.e mobile service engineer. So company car is a double edged sword, for many it means doing a lot of motorway mileage plus they're taxed on it aswell.
    Depends on the company - one place I used to work, all department heads and directors got cars or car allowances. These cars were then used as pool/loan cars during the day if anyone needed to go off-site (very common in the IT Dept, as there were several offices).

    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    When i was in industry our line manager only got the company card for special occasions....most pub lunches were out of our own pocket. How about free school lunches for teachers ? School dinners aren't as good as they used to be, but they fill a hole.
    Again, depends on the company - one small company I worked for, we had a pub lunch every other Friday on the company books. I accept this isn't the norm though! Another place, we got taken out for lunch at month-end if we'd hit target. At our school you only get a free lunch in exchange for a lunchtime duty; all the others you pay for.

  5. #79

    elsiegee40's Avatar
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    As I understand it, free lunches are a taxable perk.

    However, if staff are prepared to supervise lunches in the lunch hall or have another lunchtime duty, then the lunch can be free

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    Joanne's Avatar
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    i have to pay VAT on my lunch now, so the prices have rocketed (and i'm pretty sure its more than 17.5% !!)

    Cheaper to go across the road and get a paninni... yum.

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    muppet's Avatar
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    Ok, so moving on from the Teachers do /don't deserve more money theme.....
    Is your school going to open on the 24th for admin staff to carry on with their daily duties? The question has been asked here by the Site Supervisor, but he is still waiting for a definite response!!!
    If the answer is yes, are all admin staff expected to be in? And if not which ones will be excused (eg Reprographics, Science Techs etc.)

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    petectid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contink View Post
    I'm sorry but that's pat party political rubbish! The children are being forced to take tests to prove to some league table they have learned X, Y or Z... they are taught to pass tests, not educated. Testing to the extent that it goes on now proves nothing other than the childrens ability to pass tests. And please don't blame the teachers, they are forced to choose this approach by their superiors on up through to government.
    The results from the SATS test may be used in league tables but they have many other uses, i.e. they are use along with other data sources to calculate CVA , your right teachers do teach to test and I believe that this should be stopped, it was never intended that this should happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by contink View Post
    Yep, and you're telling me that secondary schools don't massage the heck out of their own data... I know of cases where teachers have virtually done the coursework for their kids to help their grades because of the pressures on them. Children often get forced to take courses they can pass instead of courses that will challenge them and in which they could actually learn useful skills that they benefit from.
    The data that really counts is not compiled by the school or even accessible to them, though you will often find schools looking at and presenting data from other organizations outside of government like FFT this can often paint a more favourable picture. And we are now seeing a change to what counts in exam results, five A to Cs with English and Maths is the indicator not just the number of A to Cs. So the take one get three free GCSEs we have seen like the Dida do not improve the schools overall results.


    Quote Originally Posted by contink View Post
    I agree some assessment is important but the way this assessment is done currently is just plain wrong... We're drifting way off topic again though.
    Assessment is assessment its always been done, today’s assessment methods are fair.


    Quote Originally Posted by contink View Post
    Whoops... and just got this from my other half re:

    Yes, in theory, but not in practice, they're still doing almost all of them, they just aren't contracted to do them anymore...
    The schools received lots of money under re-modelling the workforce, teachers who continue to carry out these tasks only have themselves to blame so they should not whine about it. They can no longer complain if they choose to carry these tasks out. Incidentally two of those tasks your other half may still carry out are your job.

    Ordering, setting up and maintaining ICT equipment and software.

    Managing data in school management systems
    Source

  9. #83
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    Is your school going to open on the 24th for admin staff to carry on with their daily duties? If the answer is yes, are all admin staff expected to be in?
    It'd be a nice way to get back the day we all worked for free (the 29th February - curse leap years).

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    Quote Originally Posted by duncane View Post
    It'd be a nice way to get back the day we all worked for free (the 29th February - curse leap years).
    We may have done that day for free, but since every other month is 30 or 31 days, even at 29 days, February still offers the best hourly rate :-)

  11. #85
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    don't htink our school will be too shut. Not everyone is in the NUT union.

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    As I understand it if your school is closed to pupils for a strike only NUT members will be off. Everyone else will be required to attend.

  13. #87


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    School where I used to work was closed for the day by the GMB strike after the caretaker said he wasn't prepared to cross a picket. I don't think we even had half a doven GMB members.
    Last edited by K.C.Leblanc; 3rd April 2008 at 09:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K.C.Leblanc View Post
    School where I used to work was closed for the day by the GMB strike after the caretaker said he wasn't prepared to cross a picket. I don't think we even had half a doven GMB members.
    Sadly here several of us have keys and alarm fobs etc so any one of a dozen folk could unlock if required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muppet View Post
    Is your school going to open on the 24th for admin staff to carry on with their daily duties? The question has been asked here by the Site Supervisor, but he is still waiting for a definite response!!!
    its only one teaching union that is going on strike, also not all of the members of this will be on strike so the main impact will be that there will be an increase in cover the day will progress as normal

  16. #90

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    As I understand it there is an agreement between NASUWT and NUT that neither will cover lessons for the others should one of them be out on strike ... no increase in cover except for buying cover in.

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