General Chat Thread, NUT Strike 24th April in General; @TechMonkey
I think you've hit the nail on the head about teachers who demand to know why this isn't working ...
3rd April 2008, 09:45 AM #61
I think you've hit the nail on the head about teachers who demand to know why this isn't working or that isn't working. The argument i constantly hear is about baying teenagers, as if they're ready to trash the room because the projector image has shifted 2 feet to the right. If that were to happen that's more of a refelction on the abilities of the teacher than the abilities of the IT team. How about we teach teachers about classroom management, and how to deal with obstacles that a job throws up from time to time. That ALL jobs throw up.
Either teachers have unrealisticially high expectations or they truly expect hat any technical hitch is as a result of technical mismanagement or can be forseen. These people should learn that !$%! happens and we live in an imperfect world.....where people don't always get what they want i.e payrises.
Last edited by ZeroHour; 3rd April 2008 at 09:55 AM.
3rd April 2008, 10:02 AM #62
A lot of these posts now seem to hold some resentment that teachers have much better pay prospects than school IT support staff. That isn't completely true as a few of you are getting paid as much as most of your teaching colleagues. Okay so job evaluation will probably reduce your pay if your Head decides to hide behind the smoke screen that it’s your LEA who specifies your income level.
There seems to be quite a bit of bitterness about the issue of your pay compared with teachers. Let me remind you that when you accepted the post after interview you were well aware of the pay being offered for the job. One thing I must ask is. If you feel your pay is so poor and the private sector pay much better then why are you working in the public sector? It’s your choice if you want more money get another job. I suspect some of you will now bleat that you really enjoy the work you do in school, if that’s the case then you must be willing to do it for your present pay.
Then again if its so easy being a teacher in comparison to an IT support worker why do you not retrain and become an ICT teacher then you will earn the money they do. And from my experience schools are in great need of good ICT teachers as there are few about.
3 Thanks to petectid:
GrumbleDook (3rd April 2008), jcollings (3rd April 2008), markwatkins (3rd April 2008)
3rd April 2008, 10:12 AM #63
No I think there is bitterness that the teachers don't see what they are getting and are demanding more. I know I get paid less than a teacher, if I was so aggrieved as to get bitter about it I would either become a teacher or move jobs (which is more likely!).
The problem stems from one group demanding more, when they are not as bad off as they think they are. As many ahve said, surely Nurses, Police and Doctors should have as much right to, if not more, to ask for more pay.
This is another of the problems I face when discussing this issue. The comeback eventually comes round to, why don't you do it then if you feel so hard done by. I don't, in my day to day work I love it and am happy. Yes more money would be nice to be able to afford a flat or house but I am content. But if people want to start screaming how hard done by they are they shoudl expect to have flaws in their arguments pointed out through comparisions with others who coudl very easily claim they are worse off.
I don't become a teacher because I know my limits. I find teaching kids very easy, I enjoy it when I get a chance but I am rubbish at admin work, rubbish at planning & useless with paperwork. THis I feel would put me and the kids at a disadvantage so untill I feel I have sorted those areas I wouldn't consider it. I do get bitter when those that can't see their short comings carry on regardless and ignore the consequences, blaming them on the job. As I said, if half of those that complained of the stress were to organise and plan better I think they would find it would ease.
Also the argument could be reversed. If the teachers don't like the pay why botehr moaning, get out and go into industry.
Thanks to TechMonkey from:
3rd April 2008, 11:00 AM #64
you're argument about 'if public sector pay is so poor why not move to the private sector' should be presented to the teachers aswell. It works both ways.
Originally Posted by petectid
when that is presented to the teachers and they're apologists they'll say 'oh but we need to, we must retain people in pubic sector teaching'....
Whereas you seem to be saying to public sector IT workers if you don't like the pay sod off to the private sector, as if teachers must be retained through improved pay and conditions whereas IT technicians don't need to be retained in the public sector - schools don't need to pay IT technicians to retain them. It's this attitude that creates this division between teachers and support workers, unless you're one of the people in this thread who are married to teachers. All 4 of you who've voted that 20k is not enough
And this attitude is why schools can get away with paying peanuts for IT technicians. Because they value one group higher than another. I'm happy not to have a go at teachers if we're acknowledged as IT profesisonals. And part of that is fairness of pay. Fairs days pay for a fair days work
Last edited by torledo; 3rd April 2008 at 11:06 AM.
3rd April 2008, 11:24 AM #65
Actually I think £20k is enough, and I don't agree with the NUT action on its current merits (much as I'd love the fiancée to get more money! ) My problem has always been with the generalisations being thrown around.
Originally Posted by torledo
Overall though it seems like peoples attitudes are more p*ssed that support staff get less respect, money or recognition. That seems to spilling over into an anti-teacher response which seems disproportionate to the extent that decent teachers are being lumped in with a minority of wasters.
3rd April 2008, 11:36 AM #66
i would assume almost everyone working as IT support in whatever level in a school applied because they like/love working in IT. If they liked/loved teaching they would have trained as a teacher.
Originally Posted by petectid
3rd April 2008, 11:41 AM #67
That is always the problem with these types of debates, generalisations come into play but not intentionally. I don't think anyone would claim here that all teachers are wastrals, that none of them deserve good pay and that they are all slackers. But the ones people have problems with are normally the ones that shout loudest to get more pay and better conditions.
Originally Posted by contink
But 20k is not a bad start for a graduate. It could be better but so could any pay award. As others have said, most teachers seem to forget about the 'whole package'. Would be good to include what kind of pension and hours the other graduates they quote are getting. Knowing what some new graduates in certain sectors have to go through without any prospect of regular holidays I bet they would welcome becoming teachers. It has almost become norm that the new graduates have to completely slog it to near burn out to prove themselves. So as ever, it could be worse.
Just to even it, I think there are a fair few support staff that are overly paid, waste of spaces that shoudl get a good kicking as well.
3rd April 2008, 11:43 AM #68
I do think the starting salary is enough ... but I do think that *all* public sector worker should be on a better rate and the only people with enough weight behind them are Teachers at the moment ... if they get it then other areas will follow. That is one reason why they will be fought tooth and nail by the Govt.
I also hate the generalisations ... just as I hate the generalisations abotu senior manglement ... and I hate the generalisations about support staff. We can spend days and wekks picking apart each other's arguement about how hard we think teachers work and we all have sufficient evidence about our own viewpoints ... I obviously think I am right (you would not expect anything else from me) but I do accept that other have valid views based on good evidence.
3rd April 2008, 11:49 AM #69
I went through teacher training 12 years ago and then the starting salary then was just 12k. Plus, teacher training was the most miserable time of my life.
Originally Posted by localzuk
There was no way I was going to be a teacher, so I went back to my old job for a while then trained to become the tech I am now.
I was surprised to read here that teaching now starts at 20k. I no longer feel sorry for them. I think that's ample reward for what is, from my experience, a hard job.
Teaching does demand a lot of personal time, evenings and possibly a couple of weeks in the hols, but 20k starting salary more than makes up for it.
Thanks to OverWorked from:
localzuk (3rd April 2008)
3rd April 2008, 11:54 AM #70
- Rep Power
Iv decided to do it the other way around, Experiance then university. Hopefully that will get me a better graduate job, id never work in education again though.
Originally Posted by rhyds
3rd April 2008, 11:58 AM #71
Yes and no - the "whole package" is good, but lots of corporate jobs offer a good package on top of the financial remuneration too - good pension schemes, private healthcare, company car or car allowance, travel allowances/loans, discount gym membership, pub lunches on company money etc. Also, mortgage lenders don't give two hoots about the size of the pension or the number of days holiday when considering an application - they look purely at the amount of cold hard cash coming in, and make their decision to lend (or not) based on that.
Originally Posted by TechMonkey
3rd April 2008, 12:27 PM #72
Yes your right Torledo that argument does work both ways, and teachers are leaving the profession for the private sector whether that is in industry or private education there are retention issues especially with NQTs, but more so now with more experienced staff. In order to remove this drain of experienced teachers we have to remunerate them making it more attractive to stay in the profession.
Originally Posted by torledo
3rd April 2008, 12:44 PM #73
Actually, if you asked most teachers what they would prefer:
Originally Posted by petectid
- more money
- less administration and a return to educating instead of test, test, test
.. you'd get a lot (not all) saying the latter. Money is not the only motivator and the job doesn't get some gifted individuals because it is not the same anymore. TechMonkey said it best in that it's more about paperwork, form filling and dotting the i's than actually getting the children to learn.
3rd April 2008, 01:15 PM #74
So did the teachers. It doesn't stop them moaning about everything under the sun though does it?
Originally Posted by petectid
3rd April 2008, 01:16 PM #75
I don't think corporate pensions scheme can match full salary pensions and retirement ages for teachers.
Originally Posted by NickJones
Company car for those not on mega salaries will typically be awarded based on miles covered or as a necessity of the job i.e mobile service engineer. So company car is a double edged sword, for many it means doing a lot of motorway mileage plus they're taxed on it aswell.
When i was in industry our line manager only got the company card for special occasions....most pub lunches were out of our own pocket. How about free school lunches for teachers ? School dinners aren't as good as they used to be, but they fill a hole.
You're right about mortgage lending, it is about money coming in not the package perks.
Last edited by torledo; 3rd April 2008 at 01:19 PM.
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