General Chat Thread, Pupil Discipline in General; Ex forces NCOs may be on a pension but itís not that much. Plus who would want to come out ...
27th February 2008, 06:29 PM #16
Ex forces NCOs may be on a pension but itís not that much. Plus who would want to come out of the forces and work for peanuts dealing with the dross and helping deliver parcels around school, (although they would probably be willing to help) A Sergeants salary is between 27 & 32k, an RSM can earn up to 40k, thatís more than a lot of teachers. Just because they get a pension its no excuse to pay them less. People coming out of the forces are mostly highly motivated, in their early 40s and looking for a second career on the same sort of £££ as when they were serving.
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27th February 2008, 07:14 PM #17
Let my clarify I mean going back to 1960's way of discipline.
I do think we need discipline but cains and having board rubbers thrown at you is where line has to be drawn.
As I said currently doing audiocast on this subject.
27th February 2008, 07:37 PM #18
Not So Sure
I know the little $hits can really wind us up on occasion.....but
On the face of it sounds great but we already have ex army people here (Skillforce) and to be honest the lessons are just as noisy if not worse in many cases as normal teachers.
Any ex-Army people who come in would still have to abide by all the same rules teacher currently do.
The bbc news story make interesting reading esp. the comments.
27th February 2008, 07:40 PM #19
I think this may depend on what trade they were in. An engineer may find plenty of opportunity but a Discip. Sergeant may not have as many skills that are in demand. I'm not talking about paying them peanuts but possibly less than some of the so-called experts who spend ages evaluating these kids but never seem to have a solution that does any good.
Originally Posted by BlogRat
28th February 2008, 09:49 AM #20
That is the salary range for all Sgts, engineer/technical NCOs in many cases are promoted for what they know, others in the infantry etc are promoted fort he ability to lead and command. Who would you rather employ, some one who can repair a guided missile system or the guy who can lead 30 men in a bayonet charge?
28th February 2008, 09:51 AM #21
I think if ex army types really wanted to work in schools they'd be doing teacher training.
I think we need tougher punishments and less PC rubbish. However I think a lot of the problems stem from an increasing number of students being brought up by parents who are completly incapable of bringing them up properly. Particularly those who can't say no to their children.
28th February 2008, 10:03 AM #22
Beating kids as punishment may be a deterent to the nicer kids but those hard core trouble makers no. I went to a very hard school with a structure that included prefects and monitors who could dole out punishments.
Yes the nicer kids who stepped out of line only did it once but some kids just took the beatings and other punishments without changing their behaviour.
I think what Russ was getting at was that some people can get into the habit of doleing out physical punishment and might 'get off' on it. We certainly had teachers who would hit out at kids in a total random manor for no apparent reason. That was a form of 'abuse'.
Consistancy is the key. From the Head through the SMT and down to the teachers.
I've seen ex NCO's in skills force run ragged. Kids just don't react to square bashing. One of the reasons why there is a high fallout in basic training these days.
28th February 2008, 10:30 AM #23
You don't need to hit people to discipline them. That is the last resort of the weak and should not be necessary if there are proper procedures in place.
How on earth do you teach that violence is wrong if you use it yourself?
At our local school, when the pupils misbehave, they are instantly internally excluded which involves a very boring day spent in a room divided into cubicles with boring work set and no contact with others (staggered break and lunchtimes). They don't like it.
Whilst there are still some pupils with serious problems, what it is doing is controlling the day to day insolence and disobedience and making the whole school a better place.
We do have a problem with the really hard cases as the place they are put in when excluded for more than a week is completely ineffectual and the head is not happy about condemning them to the dustbin which is pretty much what exclusion does.
28th February 2008, 10:32 AM #24
28th February 2008, 10:53 AM #25
visited a school in Hastings last year where they give pupil community service and for H&S reasons make them wear a vivid yellow jacket. The kids hate it.
We have an isolation unit with cubicles but the kids will still play up no matter what.
28th February 2008, 10:56 AM #26
I agree that parents are getting worse...we see them here saying "just call the police - we can't cope with him/her either"..
and so many kids getting kicked out by parents, or (not to put too fine a point on it) being shat on by them...it scares me when I hear what they've had to put up with, and the fact that some love school because it's so much better than home life...we even have some begging to come during the holidays..
My new place has a bit of a history by the looks of it..definetly had kids, at least one girl..I reckon 7-13ish. Her room (pinky/purple) had a big lock on the OUTSIDE, and the doors/walls have some holes in that look like they took a beating. Main bedroom had an inside lock to lock people out - nice.
Then (and this scared me a bit), I was cleaning out the big under stairs cupboard, and there are times tables, stories, "it wasn't me, it was "x"", and "Our Hidey hole" right at the back...that door had a lock too.
Even the landlord was a bit taken aback..
IF I ever have kids (and believe me, it IS an "if"), I'd hope that I would be able to raise them as I was raised, and never resort to anything like I see now. Jem's as "old fashioned" as I am, luckily.
28th February 2008, 11:08 AM #27
Chicken and the egg job.......
i'm afraid it is probably a chicken and the egg problem, we can blame parents, but we are educating future parents. In my opinion we are just turning out kids who think they can do whatever to whoever, whenever it pleases them, a culture of' you can't touch me'
We have made some good progress in the fact that we have made children more open to saying when they find something is wrong, which is good, but we know this is abused.
i think a happy medium is to be decided by each school, and the parents/ people involved in the school as to the discipline to be enforced, use democracy and ask the people , not decided by europe, and this pathetic 'government'.
Democracy is the way, ask the people what they think , but the government are scared of this, all the do is get elected, and then do what the hell they like!
the fact of the matter is that the old system was working fine, the reason for changing this was to make exams easier, and thus make the government of the time look like it was doing something to improve the country.
i dont think there is an easy answer, but the way i look at it is... if you changed the engine of a car and you found it worse than the old one, you'd put the old one back, or perhaps cover it up and sell it as something else ?
28th February 2008, 11:21 AM #28
'Square bashing', what a lovely 1950's phrase. I did 13 years in the army and never once 'square bashed'. I did drill and parades, but square bashing is often used to describe a punishment used in the days of national service where recruits-soldiers were drilled as a punishment. Drill is NEVER to be used as a punishment (it's military law y'know).
I was an NCO when I left, and follow events on the Army Rumour Service (ARRSE) closely, and the call for former soldiers to worki in schools was discussed in depth quite recently (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/...s+schools.html)
and the general feeling was that it would be a non-starter. It is also apparent to me that there is a massive disconnect between what many know about the forces and the realities of life as a soldier judging by some of the comments posted here.
There is no such thing a 'discipline sergeant'. You have platoon-troop sergeants who are responsible for the running and administration of 30+ soldiers in their platoon-troop. On operations or at war they take on more combat or organizational based roles defendant on the unit they are at and there are sergeants in technical roles who do what it says in the title. They work on technical equipment or fulfill roles such as intelligence analysis or various medical jobs.
It is dammed good fun though and the forces have the benefit of taking youngsters with zero idea about what they want to do with their lives and give them an education, training and experience that no other organization could ever do. I've seen many who would have been written off as a civilian have successful careers in the army and leave to go onto bigger and better things once they leave. And no. They won't work for peanuts. Most friends of mine who left as senior NCOs (sergeant and above) have got jobs in management-project management and are in much demand as their organizational skills and experience are far in advance of many graduates applying for the same jobs. And their time keeping is better too.
28th February 2008, 11:55 AM #29
It is also apparent to me that there is a massive disconnect between what many know about the DIFFERENT forces and the realities of life as an airman judging by some of the comments posted here.
In the RAF we had Discip. NCOs. But then we didn't do a lot of bayonet charging. The Discip NCO was responsible for initial training, which included "square-bashing". In effect it was drill practice but in the RAF it was used as a punishment as well. Either way, we called it square-bashing and great fun it was too. Maybe the Army has become too PC and worried about recruits complaining to the media about rough treatment.
From my experience, the Discip. NCOs that I knew were great blokes and capable of mixing discipline with care and understanding and I only wish we had one of them in our school to try and sort out the unruly element and let the teachers do what they are paid to do. Mind you, the Station Warrant Officer at RAF Locking was a right barsteward but his teenage daughters had him wrapped round their little fingers
28th February 2008, 12:16 PM #30
This subject has been approached by the education committee and they are at this moment effecting a strategy of actively encouraging ex NCOs from the armed forces into teaching and offering cash incentives.
It has been piloted down south somewhere and the short term effect has been quite effective according to the findings.
Even the kids have commented on how good the approach of these new teachers are and they are not using the "stand to attention" approach.
As they have very good skills in managing difficult problems in very trying situations i would personally think that they are absolutely essential for this type of position.
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