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General Chat Thread, BSF - or outsourcing by another name in General; http://www.bipsolutions.com/briefing...Brief08_00.php "there should be appropriate arrangements to protect occupational pensions, redundancy and severance terms of staff in all these types ...
  1. #61

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    http://www.bipsolutions.com/briefing...Brief08_00.php

    "there should be appropriate arrangements to protect occupational pensions, redundancy and severance terms of staff in all these types of transfer."

    as been saying tupe applies but there is special exception as it is public sector

    russ

  2. #62

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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    Sorry but I think you are being naive, but there again I am being very pessimistic!

    Appropriate arrangements = pension which is broadly equivalent , not the same and ETO still overrides what little employment protection there is. After all, under UK employment law you have little or no job security now, so why should TUPE make it any more secure?

    Consider this scenario:

    A major IT company outsources school support for Northumberland and Devon (apologies to anyone employed in those counties, I use them purely for geographic reasons). All IT support people tranfer to the IT company. They consolidate the schools servers & their support to their central data centre in West Midlands. A couple of years down the line they decide they have too many people onsite in Northumberland and Devon. What do they do? They could offer 'protection' by asking some people in Northumberland/Devon to relocate to HQ in West Midlands, or to one of their other outsourced clients (with/without relocation support), or they could apply ETO rules (on organisational or economic grounds). If you don't agree to move you are redundant. If they don't want you they will ask you to move to the worst possible place with no financial assistance to discourage you from staying.

    In the big bad world of outsourcing this happens, believe me! You could try an industrial tribunal, but I bet the outsourcing company & its legal team will have a watertight case under the ETO rules........

  3. #63

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    not saying all rose tinited glasses but not as bad as people first think...

    What i am trying to say it is not straight case of this or that same i beleiev company's will try and do everything they can to make it work for them...

    The point I am trying to get is as this national 'out source' project then we as workers need national view and unions and not have different pictures from different branches in some ways need to send national statement on the issue.

    In fact how about this if db and majority agrees then I will send a letter to unions and gmb from edugeek basicly asking for union to release a breifing on the subject on the bsf,

    how it will effect ict support/staff in genreal/what rights staff have, etc etc

    if pension is protected, right for union is regonised etc etc

    Then we have it plain balc and white..

    also remeber that the contracts for bsf have to go before unions as well and lea can not accept cheapest deal they have to accept 'best deal' offer.

    So unions have a chance to suggest improvements to contracts etc...

    also do talk to your local branch about bsf and found out local siutation and please do report back to us...

    Russ

  4. #64

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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    On the Government BSF website http://www.bsf.gov.uk/ there is a section headed 'what about me?

    It contains links to sections describing what BSF means to students, teachers, headteachers, governors, parents,LEAs, private sector, in fact everybody but school support staff.

    Says it all really.

  5. #65

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    sent to website


    "Why is it on the building school for future website you have a what about me section you include sections for every person in the school except support staff and in particular the ict support staff who will be heavily effected by out sourcing of ict in BSF project..

    Once again this reinforces the image that DFES see support staff as second class to rest of school life when they have important part to play with in any school.

    I expect to see this gross mistake altered at once...

    From

    Russell Dyas

    p.s

    I require response by email please."

    Russ

  6. #66

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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    I had a conversation with one of my LEA IT technical support team recently. He was mildly surprised at the idea that secondary school ICT might be outsourced under BSF, but a bit more surprised when I suggested it might have a knock-on affect in his own organisation.

    A question to pose to your LEA support teams.....Why would a private ICT company, having outsourced all of the secondary school ICT purchasing, support, & servers need an LEA support team?

  7. #67

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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    Quote Originally Posted by broc
    I had a conversation with one of my LEA IT technical support team recently. He was mildly surprised at the idea that secondary school ICT might be outsourced under BSF, but a bit more surprised when I suggested it might have a knock-on affect in his own organisation.

    A question to pose to your LEA support teams.....Why would a private ICT company, having outsourced all of the secondary school ICT purchasing, support, & servers need an LEA support team?
    and also whats stopping the company getting support contract with capita and cutting lea out of admin system...

    russ

  8. #68

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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    .... or Capita 'being' the outsourcing company...........shudder.......

  9. #69
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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    Quote Originally Posted by broc
    I had a conversation with one of my LEA IT technical support team recently. He was mildly surprised at the idea that secondary school ICT might be outsourced under BSF, but a bit more surprised when I suggested it might have a knock-on affect in his own organisation.

    A question to pose to your LEA support teams.....Why would a private ICT company, having outsourced all of the secondary school ICT purchasing, support, & servers need an LEA support team?
    and also whats stopping the company getting support contract with capita and cutting lea out of admin system...

    russ
    This may happen, as Capita seem to manage to win contracts through the dfes no matter how much they mess up. They won the chance to continue running the teachers pension fund even though they had lost millions of pounds worth of teacher’s contributions. I am definatley in the camp that believes LEAs will not be running school admin systems under current conditions but may have to re-tender for the contracts in a world where they will not be able to compete. I believe this because the present Government, which will be backed by the opposition, as they are on the Education bill, wants to give schools more autonomy from LEAs.

  10. #70

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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    Quote Originally Posted by petectid
    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    Quote Originally Posted by broc
    I had a conversation with one of my LEA IT technical support team recently. He was mildly surprised at the idea that secondary school ICT might be outsourced under BSF, but a bit more surprised when I suggested it might have a knock-on affect in his own organisation.

    A question to pose to your LEA support teams.....Why would a private ICT company, having outsourced all of the secondary school ICT purchasing, support, & servers need an LEA support team?
    and also whats stopping the company getting support contract with capita and cutting lea out of admin system...

    russ
    This may happen, as Capita seem to manage to win contracts through the dfes no matter how much they mess up. They won the chance to continue running the teachers pension fund even though they had lost millions of pounds worth of teacher’s contributions. I am definatley in the camp that believes LEAs will not be running school admin systems under current conditions but may have to re-tender for the contracts in a world where they will not be able to compete. I believe this because the present Government, which will be backed by the opposition, as they are on the Education bill, wants to give schools more autonomy from LEAs.
    Both BSF and the Whitepaper have got it in for the LEAs. What bothers me is the alternatives of trust schools, LEPs, and the need to keep private shareholders happy don't present a particularly attractive alternative to life under the LEAs. At least there is some degree of public accountability with the LEAs. It feels like every support role (not just ICT) in education is under some form of privatisation threat right now

  11. #71
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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    I couldn't agree more Broc, I'm not anti LEA, by far I support there role in schools as they have a closer link with the public locally and are more accountable. Though I do believe that they should be watching these moves carefully not not just sitting there in the belief they are un-touchable, because they are not and will almost certainly have to tender for their current role in providing things like SIMs support.

  12. #72

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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    I was invited as a guest to attend a meeting held by my local Unison branch last night. The main speaker was a Unison official from a neighbouring local authority, part of wave 1 BSF. This LA, supported by the unions & staff had secured agreement to centralise ICT delivery and keep it under LA control. Approx 50 staff (network managers and ICT technicians) were expected to be 'transferred' to the LA.

    The single most significant message from the meeting was that Partnership for Schools are obsessed with the idea of centralised ICT procurement, delivery, and support all to be delivered by private companies as part of a Local Education Partnership (LEP). If a Local Authority wishes to bid for that service provision they may do so, but they will be judged against the private competition. Partnership for Schools expect the private ICT service providers to predominate.

    The status quo, where schools have their own autonomy with ICT is not expected to survive. Schools who wished to be excluded were told they would not receive any of the BSF ICT funding, typically £1m or more for a medium sized school.

    The rather blunt message to members was those who wish to remain in the employ of their LA need to engage in discussion as early as possible during the BSF program. They need to canvass support from their own school, SMT, teachers, Governors. They need to engage in dialogue with their LEA, LA, and local councillors. The LA needs to successfully bid for the delivery of ICT in its own schools.

    If you want to work for a private ICT supplier, sit back and do nothing.......

  13. #73

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    thats been my point all along starting talking about it not only to lea but unions, heads. smt, everybody

    russ

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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    I think its time I added my two-pence-worth in to the fray. For some time now in my LEA we have had a guy doing an ICT audit of the first tranche of schools committed to BSF. His findings are quite disturbing. Please remember he has to view all of the schools as a single entity in terms of hardware which can be reused in the new schools.
    In some schools it has been reported that there is almost no evidence that the school had invested any of the money received for NGfL funding for 6 years. Some schools (secondary) are still running Windows 95 and NT 4.0 server. If out of 5 schools only one has a modern and effective ICT stucture the other 4 still bring it down then any chance of them ever being allowed to run their own networks is minimal should they have applied as part of the bidding process.
    I trust here that we all have modern and well kept networks, but I know that this is just not the case. Funds are diverted or squandered on pointless projects or support contracts. Purchaing decisions are overridden by management who don't appreciate the knock on effect of their actions, and in some cases incompetant and unskilled staff employed to maintain networks far beyond their abilities. I remain hopeful that in my area we have picked a decent solution (not RM or M$) from a reputable company who should understand a schools needs and do their upmost to accomodate the new schools. It will however come as a shock to some teachers who will now find that they have to follow procedures and fill out requests to get the support that they are so used to having at the drop of a hat to the increaed blood pressure of us all.

  15. #75

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    Re: BSF - or outsourcing by another name

    Hear! Hear! Well said that man.
    /me waves order paper.

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