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General Chat Thread, women in IT article in General; Only on page 2, and "tit" has made an appearance in the thread.. I know, I know...I'm a child....
  1. #16
    Sirbendy's Avatar
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    Only on page 2, and "tit" has made an appearance in the thread..

    I know, I know...I'm a child.

  2. #17

    witch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete10141748 View Post
    As for being ageist, well, it almost goes without saying that youger people are going to be better to employ in the long-run than more "senior" people. After all, technology moves so fast, and you need someone who can keep up for as long as possible.

    Not to provoke "ageist" arguments, but I've seen evidence of this throughout my school here. The SMT, older staff and even the IT coordinator are all drastically oposing Vista / VLP's / anything new, as they feel they can't cope** with such a change and want things to stay the same (i.e. crap but they know how to use what little there is) whereas the technician and I (and most of the NQT's and certainly the kids!) are more than happy with the Vista stuff we have, have great expectations for the Virtua Learning Platform we are setting up, want "helpdesk" software for the staff to report problems to us, and are generally always looking for the next new thing to try out.

    It's no suprise that as people get older they dont want to have to 'cope' with new things - thats why the Digital Divide came about (the difference between those who like and use technology (under 45's) and those who see no reason/don't want to use it (over 45's). I'm not sure I got the ages right but that's the jist of the "DD".)

    Hopefully, now that everyone is growing up and having to use technology for almost everything (I'm talking about the younger-than-10's here), things like the Digital Divide won't happen so drastically in future, as everyone will know how to use the commonplace forms of technology which are around and most people will not think much of learning something new, as they have done so throughout their life.
    .
    For goodness sake, I never heard such an ill thought out argument in my life...you are saying that you, being young, are better able to learn new technology because you have always had to learn something new? What about the fact that the ancient old people, sorry, the over 45's have had to get to grips with the HUGE advances in technology - that is, there wasn't much when they were young, and they had to learn all about computers and the like FROM SCRATCH. I was studying electronics in the late 70's so I know what I am talking about.
    Young people are NOT better employees (and if I wasn't so old and tired I would go and get you some statistics to back me up) as they tend not to stay in jobs very long and often do not have the dedication of the older ones.
    I don't dispute that there are many people in schools who are loth to learn about new things, not just new technology (in my experience, of ALL Ages) but I would argue that this is because they are not given sufficient training and told exactly how the new stuff will benefit them - teachers have enough stress and paperwork to cope with and they often cannot cope with more without being given time to absorb and learn. You say it yourself: "they know how to use what little there is" and that is the point, isn't it?
    I think you will find that there are quite a lot of so-called older people on Edugeek who will not appreciate being told that they are 'past it'.

    And as the OP was talking about women in IT anyway, what are you going on about?

    I am both female AND really really old and I really like this from the original article:

    Some women in Australia have put together an organization that promotes "The IT Screen Goddess Initiative" complete with its own Website (Caution: I rate this Website "PG"). The group's major project is the publication of an "IT Goddess" calendar that rivals the swimsuit edition of Sports Illustrated. The stated purpose of the calendar is "to dispel the 'geeky' image of IT and the perception that IT is not a desirable career for women, by providing a life expose of real women with unreal careers--all living and loving IT."

    The IT Goddesses are very explicit about their goals:

    * Smash through the perception of the geeky technologist
    * Put a spotlight on the industry and increase national interest and awareness in careers in information technology
    * Raise awareness of the diversity of women in IT
    * Raise money for non-profit groups that run initiatives to encourage females to take up technology studies and to enter technology careers
    * Promote organizations and companies involved in and supporting IT through sponsorship/promotional opportunities on each page of the calendar

    Raskino calls this Website "a shocker," but points out that this is the extent to which some have gone to promote the acceptability of IT as a career for women.

    As a former electronics engineer who would have been a computer engineer had there been any in those far off days - I hope more women will enter IT -
    It's a great life if you don't weaken!

  3. #18
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WITCH View Post
    For goodness sake, I never heard such an ill thought out argument in my life...you are saying that you, being young, are better able to learn new technology because you have always had to learn something new? What about the fact that the ancient old people, sorry, the over 45's have had to get to grips with the HUGE advances in technology - that is, there wasn't much when they were young, and they had to learn all about computers and the like FROM SCRATCH. I was studying electronics in the late 70's so I know what I am talking about.
    Young people are NOT better employees (and if I wasn't so old and tired I would go and get you some statistics to back me up) as they tend not to stay in jobs very long and often do not have the dedication of the older ones.
    I don't dispute that there are many people in schools who are loth to learn about new things, not just new technology (in my experience, of ALL Ages) but I would argue that this is because they are not given sufficient training and told exactly how the new stuff will benefit them - teachers have enough stress and paperwork to cope with and they often cannot cope with more without being given time to absorb and learn. You say it yourself: "they know how to use what little there is" and that is the point, isn't it?
    I think you will find that there are quite a lot of so-called older people on Edugeek who will not appreciate being told that they are 'past it'.

    And as the OP was talking about women in IT anyway, what are you going on about?

    I am both female AND really really old and I really like this from the original article:

    Some women in Australia have put together an organization that promotes "The IT Screen Goddess Initiative" complete with its own Website (Caution: I rate this Website "PG"). The group's major project is the publication of an "IT Goddess" calendar that rivals the swimsuit edition of Sports Illustrated. The stated purpose of the calendar is "to dispel the 'geeky' image of IT and the perception that IT is not a desirable career for women, by providing a life expose of real women with unreal careers--all living and loving IT."

    The IT Goddesses are very explicit about their goals:

    * Smash through the perception of the geeky technologist
    * Put a spotlight on the industry and increase national interest and awareness in careers in information technology
    * Raise awareness of the diversity of women in IT
    * Raise money for non-profit groups that run initiatives to encourage females to take up technology studies and to enter technology careers
    * Promote organizations and companies involved in and supporting IT through sponsorship/promotional opportunities on each page of the calendar

    Raskino calls this Website "a shocker," but points out that this is the extent to which some have gone to promote the acceptability of IT as a career for women.

    As a former electronics engineer who would have been a computer engineer had there been any in those far off days - I hope more women will enter IT -
    It's a great life if you don't weaken!
    here's a link (at the bottom) to the it goddesses calendar website.....if the attempt was to portray women in IT as sexy and glamorous then i'm not sure it hits the mark - while not wishing to sound like a sexist troll, the calendar is a bit of a mixed bag and i was disaapointed at the lack of sexy IT professionals posing with soldering irons and the like - something that would appeal to both men and women, it turned out to be a poor attempt at a calendar with some less than average sex appeal lamely mimicking classic film icons ,,,,,

    despite my reservations about the quality of the calendar
    i found the interview with liisa quite interesting, she started in IT in 1969 and she's still teaching the next generatoin of IT professionals...i'd imagine a pretty inspirational figure for the young women she teaches.
    her interview is definintely worth a read (link at the bottom);



    But I reckon UK girls in IT could do a much better job of a calendar ;o)


    http://www.itgoddess.info/b_liisa.htm

  4. #19
    Jake's Avatar
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    I for one am very glad that the IT Screen Goddess' have taken this standpoint

    Fear not Witch, I dont think any one of us here would think of you as being "past it" ! From what I have seen of you as you walk past my lowlevel cage, anything but !

    I think having more women in IT is very beneficial to us males in IT too, females are by design much more human than us and certainly easier to converse and interact with. Combine that with a good knowledge of IT and it greatly helps to dispell the popular image that all IT support personnel are inhuman robots.

    It means less opportunity to fart in the office, but its a small price to pay

  5. Thanks to Jake from:

    torledo (2nd February 2008)

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    I for one am very glad that the IT Screen Goddess' have taken this standpoint

    Fear not Witch, I dont think any one of us here would think of you as being "past it" ! From what I have seen of you as you walk past my lowlevel cage, anything but !

    I think having more women in IT is very beneficial to us males in IT too, females are by design much more human than us and certainly easier to converse and interact with. Combine that with a good knowledge of IT and it greatly helps to dispell the popular image that all IT support personnel are inhuman robots.

    It means less opportunity to fart in the office, but its a small price to pay
    that is the best explanation for having more women in IT that i have read. Jake, you are a man of hidden depths and insight.

  7. #21

    witch's Avatar
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    Ohhh Jake - you smooth talker you!

  8. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    I for one am very glad that the IT Screen Goddess' have taken this standpoint

    Fear not Witch, I dont think any one of us here would think of you as being "past it" ! From what I have seen of you as you walk past my lowlevel cage, anything but !

    I think having more women in IT is very beneficial to us males in IT too, females are by design much more human than us and certainly easier to converse and interact with. Combine that with a good knowledge of IT and it greatly helps to dispell the popular image that all IT support personnel are inhuman robots.

    It means less opportunity to fart in the office, but its a small price to pay
    At least we know what you do in the office lol at least until you get someone working with you in the IT department who is female lol

    Just kidding !!

  9. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    Came across this article from one of my favourite tech websites, the iseries/AS400 information website itjungle.com....
    I've read a couple of similarly-themed articles over the past couple of months (sorry, can't remember where, and can't seem to figure out where, either - modern memory-loss: out of Google, out of mind...), and the general consensus seemed to be:

    1) ICT at school is dull. Really dull. Especially for girls, who are bright enough to figure out just how dull it is and do something else instead.
    2) Come careers-choosing time, pupils are encouraged to consider careers related to their top-rated subjects. Girls tend to score higher marks in English than they do in Maths - even though they often score better at maths than the boys do (they just score even better in English!). Hence they tend to be encouraged to consider pointless stuff like becoming a lawyer.

    --
    David Hicks
    Last edited by dhicks; 3rd February 2008 at 12:23 PM.

  10. #24
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    [QUOTE=dhicks;152908][QUOTE=torledo;152588]Came across this article from one of my favourite tech websites, the iseries/AS400 information website itjungle.com....


    I've read a couple of similarly-themed articles over the past couple of months (sorry, can't remember where, and can't seem to figure out where, either - modern memory-loss: out of Google, out of mind...), and the general consensus seemed to be:

    1) ICT at school is dull. Really dull. Especially for girls, who are bright enough to figure out just how dull it is and do something else instead.
    2) Come careers-choosing time, pupils are encouraged to consider careers related to their top-rated subjects. Girls tend to score higher marks in English than they do in Maths - even though they often score better at maths than the boys do (they just score even better in English!). Hence they tend to be encouraged to consider pointless stuff like becoming a lawyer.

    --
    David Hicks
    When I was at school ICT as a subject didn't exist, in the days when schools had a handful of computers running Windows 3.1 ICT was integrated with business studies. I say integrated, it was covered minimally, and as business studies was the only subject in which we ever used a computer covering ICT actually meant using a computer as part of our business studies coursework

    Fast forward several years, and ICT is still not done justice in school. ICT seems to be about covering how IT is used in certain industries such as travel in a wholly inadequate 10,000 feet overview manner, with students given no understanding or insight into the products and processes used in corprate IT...while practical elements consist of word and excel, and writing a lot of essays.

    This is wholly inadequate for preparing pupils even for ict at a-level, which i'm sure has moved on from the days of pasal, and more pascal.

    I scraped a C in maths, did completely non technical subjects at A-level
    and only stepped on the path to an ict career long after my final a-level exams....very few people at 16 have a clear idea of what they want to do. Young girls not choosing IT post-16 is not the end of the world, they've still got 2 maybe 3 years of wasting their time with pointless A-levels or BTEC business studies, before as an industry IT has another chance to influence their career choices. Even after a philosophy degree a female undergraduate can still enter the IT field in certain specialisms...

    Trust me, after a couple of years of part-time work stacking shelves and being harangued for being a few minutes late by an a-hole of a manager in a DIY store or fast food chain after studies.......and the endless essays and the stress of staying up all night to finish off asignments, IT work will be the most enjoyable and fullfiling career choice (it was to me)...

    IT is only boring if you're the type of person, male or female, who doesn't want to have to think for a living. Most white collar jobs are a huge letdown, IT isn't as long as you keep developing and moving on where necessary. Can't think of a more suitable job for the girls.

  11. #25

    witch's Avatar
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    Way to go, Torledo!!

    But how to we get it across to the girls? I think there are more going into software and such than before (my husband is a computer systems analyst and there seems to be a lot of women in his office!), but there aren't many doing the nuts and bolts stuff.
    Personally I love what I do and I love computers but even among my many female friends, all of whom are very intelligent and most of whom have degrees, I am regarded as a bit odd because of my choice of career..(at least I think it's that......)

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by WITCH View Post
    Way to go, Torledo!!

    But how to we get it across to the girls? I think there are more going into software and such than before (my husband is a computer systems analyst and there seems to be a lot of women in his office!), but there aren't many doing the nuts and bolts stuff.
    Personally I love what I do and I love computers but even among my many female friends, all of whom are very intelligent and most of whom have degrees, I am regarded as a bit odd because of my choice of career..(at least I think it's that......)
    I think it's up to career advisers, teachers, colleges to offer the option of IT.......one of the problems i think is the lack of former IT professionals teaching IT in schools. I don't see that chaging anytime soon, i know if someone were to offer me a lot of money to go into teaching i sure as hell wouldn't be wanting to cover any other subjects such as science and maths (i was crap at science at school), and i'd demand a lot of money to set up a cisco academy or similar project working with an industry name......and neither of those things are likely to happen in an avergae comp.

    i think you're right, there are very few young women doing the nuts and bolts work, a fair number go into systems analysis or are taken on by blue chips after graduation. I think if young women are to enter into the bolier room i.e school ict dept, they have to be encouraged to seek improvement, so that means developing their skills and offering a route to promoion. Both are difficult in school because of the lack of structured training and minimal career progression options within the same school.

    BTW what dhicks said about girls at school and english is spot on.......
    when i did my engliish lit a-level (biiiig mistake) at college i was one of only two guys in a group of about 14 female english lit students......

    and yes, it was an absolute nightmare. Looking back i should have done a-level IT, instead i ended up studying shakespeare and books by toni morrison -(although there were one or two girls in the group who were very nice, and easy to get along with).

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